As the world knows, Trayvon Martin was stalked and shot to death by an armed vigilante. The police report that night called it an unnecessary killing to prevent unlawful act.

We will never know the full story because the victim has been forever silenced. That's the thing about guns, they have the last word.

Martin's killer George Zimmerman pleaded self-defense and was acquitted thanks, in part, to Florida's Stand Your Ground law. That law was the handiwork of the national rifle association, whose lobbyist, Marion Hammer, is seen standing there beside Governor Jeb Bush when he signed it In 2005.

Ever since, members of the right-wing organization, the American Legislative Exchange Council, also known as ALEC, have been pushing versions of bills like it in state capitols across the country. Twenty-one states have followed suit.

To understand what's happening, read this important new book, The Last Gun: How Changes in the Gun Industry Are Killing Americans and What It Will Take to Stop It.

The author is Tom Diaz. He’s a veteran, former N.R.A member, and worked as an assistant managing editor at the conservative Washington Times. Trained as a lawyer he served as a senior policy analyst at the Violence Policy Center before turning to full-time writing and speaking on guns and their impact on America.

Tom Diaz, welcome.

TOM DIAZ: Thank you so much.

BILL MOYERS: I heard you say earlier that the real winners in the Florida tragedy are the NRA and the gun industry. How so?

TOM DIAZ: Well, for two reasons, I think. One, it, in their eyes validates the whole concept of this, what they call Stand Your Ground law. Look, Zimmerman stood his ground and nothing bad happened to him, so that validates the idea that you're going to need these things to protect yourself. Secondly, it increases the market which is what ultimately this is all about. Now they have a case to say, don't you wish you had one of these things in your pocket if some guy was beating your head in the sidewalk? So, one hand reinforces the other.

BILL MOYERS: The conservatives are claiming that Stand Your Ground was not a factor in this case. The "National Review Online” says the media is quote, "inventing reasons to blame the verdict on Florida's gun laws,” when in fact the Stand Your Ground law wasn't even used in Zimmerman's defense.

TOM DIAZ: It wasn't used technically, that I would agree with. But the Stand Your Ground law changed the circumstances in Florida, under which a person might go about armed as did Zimmerman. And so that even if the lawyers, I think quite wisely the defense lawyers, chose not to make this an issue, it encouraged the kind of carrying of weapons and the thought that, well, I can use this. The law of self-defense which goes back to ancient times to the Talmud, it's absolutely clear that a person who's being threatened, whose own life is being threatened as the right, the moral, ethical, legal right to if necessary kill a person trying to kill them, that's not a question.

What we did develop though in our common law were restraints about when you might use that. One had a duty to retreat generally, avoid violence if you can. Why take another human life if there's a way out of the conflict? There was an exception to that, and that was in one's own home. This is the so-called Castle doctrine. That's where the word, the phrase, stand your ground, came into legal significance.

If you're in your own home and I come in and clearly are going to do you harm, you have no duty to retreat. If necessary you can take my life. What's happened here is that the NRA, Marion Hammer, and the people in Florida and gun advocates generally have twisted this language so that now they've taken this concept of stand your ground into the public space. And they've tried to say, well, the law hasn't changed. In fact the law has changed. It was very carefully crafted to reduce mayhem, to reduce the chance that somebody's going to be killed and now turned into a situation that practically begs for someone to be killed if I feel threatened.

BILL MOYERS: Do you think this is what happened to George Zimmerman?

TOM DIAZ: Yes, I have to say I don't think George Zimmerman is a victim, I think he was a tool.


TOM DIAZ: He was the perfect marketing target of the gun industry, small handgun carried around, if you're going to buy, no pun intended, at Target, which was apparently his destination, don't you need your gun to protect yourself? This is exactly what the NRA and the gun industry want to do because it increases sales. And there's a whole, within the industry themselves they talk about how wonderful this concealed carry, Stand Your Ground laws are for selling small handguns exactly like Zimmerman had.

BILL MOYERS: But there are dangerous people out there, they will tell you that.

TOM DIAZ: We have known there are dangerous people since medieval times. And we've understood there's a problem. And we've said you can defend yourself when necessary. That hasn't changed one bit. What has changed is the mix so that we now have people going around with more deadly weapons.

It's something that I think that most average Americans simply have no understanding of the mindset of the diminishing number of people who own firearms and who own them specifically to carry out on the street, nevertheless they have a mindset. And that mindset is danger lurks everywhere and you better have your gun to protect yourself.

Goes to the extreme of having, you need a gun in your bathroom because what if you're going to the bathroom and your gun is in the living room. You need a gun in your ankle because suppose your drop your gun that you carry in your waist. This is not an exaggeration. I read regularly the fan magazines of the gun business. And it's, I say it's like reading these bodice-ripper romance novels without any good parts.

The two things they talk about more than anything else are military style assault rifles and handguns for self-defense. Almost every issue of every magazine fuels this feeling that you better have a gun, and hey, here's the greatest new gun in the industry.

BILL MOYERS: You're saying this is a business strategy?

TOM DIAZ: Oh yeah, the gun industry admits it. One of the prolific writers in the industry magazine, this is not fan magazines now. This is a magazine where the industry talks to itself, called it cashing in. Basically, I'm paraphrasing here, but, the exact phrase, but he said if you're not cashing in on concealed carry laws, you're not going to make money.

Article after article in the industry publication says these laws are going to boost your sales of handguns and specific kinds of handguns that are going to bring you out of the slump. And not only that, both in the case of assault rifles and handguns one writer described the customer as a walking cluster, a walking cluster of after-market sales.

You're going to need special holsters. Now they're even saying you're going to need a special coat for the winter or the summer to conceal your gun. So the after-market and accessories are where, and as a matter of fact, it's where, as in a lot of consumer products, it's where the big profits are.

And what it appears to be is that it's not so many new buyers as it is old buyers buying more and more guns. The average number of guns owned by gun owners has gone up and up and up. The average number of households and individuals who say they own guns has been going down. So what we have is fewer and fewer people buying more and more guns.

BILL MOYERS: How do you reconcile what you've just said about fewer and fewer people actually owning guns with the increasing power of the National Rifle Association? You write in your book that the NRA has gone to extreme lengths to draw a veil of secrecy over the facts, the facts surrounding its impact, on our lives.

TOM DIAZ: Well, the gun industry learned a lot from the cigarette industry. When the cigarette industry was sued one of the things, probably the most important thing that people who litigated against the cigarette industry, was the internal papers of the cigarette industry where we found out these guys not only knew they were killing people, they went to lengths to cover up the fact the they were killing people.

The gun industry was terrified when some litigators said, hey, why don't we do to the gun industry what we did to the cigarette industry and other evil industries? So they got Congress to pass a law do away with lawsuits again, it's very hard to sue the gun industry. But there were two other corollaries that led up to that.

One was preventing the Centers for Disease Control which is our public health research arm, the source of almost all of our data about everything from measles to firearms death, they decided, a congressman by the name of Jay Dickey said, hey, we don't want them doing this research on guns. He originally wanted to shut down the whole unit that does all research. And finally they compromised and said, okay, you just can't spend any money on guns.

So we have told the only national public health research agency, you can look at anything else. You can look at measles, you can look at workplace accidents, but don't look at guns. So that's one. Number two, there's an agency a law enforcement agency, a federal law enforcement agency called the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. I'll call it ATF. ATF does something, it’s called tracing crime guns, which means if a gun is used in a crime or is found at a crime scene or illegally possessed, they trace that gun from its manufacturer, because Federal records are, the manufacturers are required to keep records, to the fist point of its public sale.

And then if they can they follow it to the point which it was either found or used in a crime. The value of that in terms of law enforcement is law enforcement investigators can tell was this gun used in another crime or crimes, how did this person get the gun, was it possibly sold by gun traffickers?

From a public health point of view the value of this data, and we're talking about millions upon millions of cases investigated, that is, traced, by ATF, is that we can answer some of the questions that now are just veiled. For example, when I worked in this field people would call me and say, well, how many Glock pistols were used in shootings in the last ten years? And I would say, nobody knows. And we don't know.

We could know if we could access the ATF database. The same thing when the horrible shooting in Newtown, people would say, well, how many of these Bushmaster AR-15 assault rifles have been used in shootings or crimes? We only know anecdotally. But if we could get that ATF data we would know precisely. So it would answer questions about do these designs make a difference? Are specific kinds of guns implicated in crime?

So that's the ATF contribution. If you take those two together, public health, law enforcement, you have a very good picture of what is the impact not only of guns generally in the United States, but of specific types, calibers, manufacturers. The industry is terrified of this.

BILL MOYERS: How is it they've kept Congress from giving us that basic information? How do you explain the power of the industry over our political process? They own our political process now.

TOM DIAZ: Well, I think there are two answers to that. And it doesn't give me any joy to say it. One, the, one of the things the NRA has a program called Refuse To Be A Victim. The American, certainly the American national, and I'll say liberal, progressive, whatever you want to say, political establishment has chosen to be a victim.

They have given up on guns. They've bought into a thing called the third way which is somehow there's this mythical common ground we can reach with the NRA or the gun industry, and let's not talk about gun control. They call it the third rail of politics, so you have a victim here. On the other hand it must be said that the National Rifle Association has what every politician wishes they had, that is they have somebody in every congressional district.

Even if it's only one or two people they have somebody. When Wayne LaPierre in his palatial headquarters in Fairfax, Virginia pushes the button, the talking points go out, the phones or the emails arrive in Congress. The other side is not that organized. People who are gun control advocates have typically been small groups in Los Angeles, Washington, New York. They can't respond to that. That I hope, I think is changing.

BILL MOYERS: Tom, we're out of time right now, but let's continue this discussion online.

TOM DIAZ: Great, thank you.

BILL MOYERS: The book is The Last Gun: How Changes in the Gun Industry are Killing Americans and What It Will Take to Stop It. Tom Diaz, thanks for joining me.

TOM DIAZ: My pleasure, thank you.

Tom Diaz on Dangerous Gun Laws

The death of Trayvon Martin has ignited a debate not just over our justice system, but on laws such as “stand your ground” that contributed to the tragic result. Bill talks with author and gun industry analyst Tom Diaz about how a lethal combination of self-defense laws and concealed carry laws — championed by the NRA and the gun industry — makes us more vulnerable to gun violence. He warns that the genie is out of the bottle and we should be gravely concerned about the unrelenting marketing of guns. Diaz’s latest book is The Last Gun: How Changes in the Gun Industry Are Killing Americans and What It Will Take to Stop It.

“What we have is fewer and fewer people buying more and more guns,” Diaz tells Bill. “I think most average Americans simply have no understanding of the mindset of the diminishing number of people who own firearms and who own them specifically to carry out on the street… that mindset is ‘danger lurks everywhere and you better have your gun to protect yourself.'”

Watch Part 2 of Bill’s conversation with Tom Diaz.

Interview Producer: Gail Ablow. Editor: Rob Kuhns.
Intro Producer: Robert Booth. Intro Editor: Paul Henry Desjarlais.

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  • Wfeather1942

    What with a BS artist you are making false claims and posting lies, why should anyone listen to you?

  • Anonymous

    Seriously? Conceal-Carry is dangerous?

    From Committee Reports – 112th Congress (2011-2012) – House Report 112-277, and I quote:

    There is also little evidence that law-abiding permit holders are a threat to public safety. The state of Florida, which has issued over 2 million concealed carry permits since it adopted a `right-to-carry’ law in 1987, has revoked just 6,400 permits (just 0.3 percent of the total issued permits) and just 168 concealed carry permits were revoked due to the use of a firearm in a crime (just 0.008 percent).

    Read the report directly from the United States Library of Congress:

    But why stop there? Florida has access to the same statistics that the Congressional report used. Let’s go read ’em, eh? Directly from the Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services Division of Licensing, the Concealed Weapon or Firearm License Summary Report October 1, 1987 – June 30, 2013, in PDF format:

    Fact defeats propaganda.

  • CSI America

    Seriously. Forget the reports and use common sense. Start giving people permits to carry weapons and it will make them feel more safe and powerful. The tendency will be to use them.

  • Anonymous

    And what have you got to support your position? “Because I said so” isn’t worth the bits it takes to display it.

  • CSI America

    Here’s one article that may clear things up for you:

  • Anonymous

    Well, at random, I picked one incident and went looking for unbiased sources; Humberto Delgado Jr.

    Bipolar. Former cop. In a store with a load of weapons in a shopping cart, acting strangely.

    Zero of the reputable news sites mentioned anything about a conceal-carry permit.

    I don’t have time to run-down the others. But I don’t have much hopes.

  • Anonymous

    Yes they will own/use them to protect and defend against the criminal thugs.

  • Anonymous

    Now, your chosen site shows a total of 516 people killed with a conceal-carry weapon between 2007 and 2013. Let’s say I buy that. But, let’s compare…

    According to the FBI, between 2007 and 2011 (2 years less than your site’s stats), 4,058 people were killed by someone else using their hands, fists, feet, etc:

    I’m thinking we need to ban hands, fists and feet. And hey – those usually aren’t concealed, and no permit required!

  • Anonymous

    And of the 516 people killed with a concealed carry weapon most likely 500 of those deaths we of persons died threatening or committing deadly crime.

  • CSI America

    I can’t harm you from 10 feet away with my hands, fists, and feet.

  • CSI America
  • Anonymous

    And yet 10 times as many people are killed with hands, fists and feet than concealed-carry guns. Who’d have thought?

  • Junior Samples

    Like George Zimmerman did. Had he not been armed, he almost assuredly would be dead and his murder probably unsolved, as young Trayvon would not have stuck around for the police to show up. Self-defense is an inherent right that ALL people have, it is not conferred by government. The city of Sanford was right, there should have never been a trial.

  • Junior Samples

    Could you and Bill get a room?

  • moderator

    Please remember to follow our comment policy. If you cannot, you will no longer be able to participate in this community.

    Thank You,
    Sean @ Moyers

  • Anonymous

    10 feet away is less than 1 second from a deadly kick or punch. But Travon was the exception, most of these punks would be using a stolen or drug swap gun or knife. I know you say get rid of them. But how? By disarming the good guys. Wrong! Put the target on the correct person: the street thug.

  • Anonymous

    “I think most average Americans simply have no understanding of the mindset of the diminishing number of people who own firearms and who own them specifically to carry out on the street… that mindset is ‘danger lurks everywhere and you better have your gun to protect yourself.’”
    Tom Diaz must live in a Utopia where the lamb lies down with the lion. Humans learned long ago what he must have forgotten in his comfy place: Peace is only maintained through strength and eternal vigilance.

  • Jim

    I love your interviews Bill but if someone has made his or hers mind up to kill someone, not having a access to a gun is not going to stop them. Guns are not the weapon of choice for murder because they are so loud. You shoot an average size caliber gun without ear protection and your ears will ring. I don’t think your guess has ever shot a gun because they are not like shooting a kids toy or does it only take 10 minutes to learn how to shoot one proficiently. Before guns were invented people had no problems killing each other with bows and arrows. Having lived out in Asia in a country that have banned guns, I’m glad the USA has the Second Amendment. You will find the the murder rate per capital with guns is not significantly lower in countries that have banned guns than the USA, some even higher like Mexico. Cities with strict gun laws have a higher crime rates, Washington DC and Chicago. If a lot of Americans could live long term in gun banned countries maybe the would think differently about guns. Nobody on earth takes their freedoms more for granted than Americans.

    “But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism,
    it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security” – Declaration of Independence.

  • LeftShooter

    Kimber, and CSI,

    Read Clayton Cramer’s deconstructive analysis of the incorrect VPC report:

    “Facts die when emotions run high”

  • Anonymous

    Some of these incidents that VPC list involve killings by people who by VPC’s own admission did not have a concealed weapon permit.

    Kind-of like Hemenway using his own studies as references, huh? :)

    Thanks for saving me the time of doing more research. PDF downloaded and cross-indexed!

  • Martin Back

    Tom Diaz, apparently you don’t realize that the Newtown shooting had no Bushmaster AR15 involved because the psychotic shooter left it in the car. Only the media’s hype made the uninformed believe that he used it. I think it is a sad day when you can profit from several parents losses by writing fiction and improperly having the public wrongly believe it as true.

  • Bill


    First I would like to say this
    event is as tragic as anything that can be imagined. The unnecessary loss of a
    human life is devastating whatever the situation. However we are supposed to be
    a nation of laws and the jury made their decision that Zimmerman should walk
    free. Ironically this is what the Sanford police thought some 16 months prior
    to this verdict.

    I will say that in the past, when nothing was
    on the TV that I deemed interesting, I could always go to your program and maybe
    not agree with you, but at least respect your input on a topic. Sadly, I must
    say I will no longer have this option. Your opening statement set the stage for
    the entire program. Your terms of service tells me I cannot intentionally make
    false or misleading statements. I only wish you had to abide by the same rules.
    Stalked and shot to death by an armed vigilante. This is typical of the rhetoric
    that began coming out of the media from the beginning and continues on a daily
    basis. One representative said, “shot down like a rabid dog”, so I guess by
    comparison yours may not be the worst example but definitely up towards the
    top. I conjure up images of the lion
    stalking the antelope, the wolf stalking the deer, where survival depends on
    the death of your neighbor but not that
    of a neighborhood watchman. The watchman is someone seeing a stranger that appears not to be in
    the right place or doing something that is not natural under the circumstances. In the
    same opening sentence, calling Zimmerman a vigilante is another very poor
    choice of words. A vigilante is someone who according to Webster decides that
    the laws in place are inadequate and decide to take matters into their own
    hands, similar to what the New Black Panthers did when they issued a wanted
    poster for Zimmerman, dead or alive. There
    is not one law that Zimmerman broke in this entire ordeal. As I close, I
    realize that maybe you were only promoting a book and if this is your policy,
    it only reinforces my decision to pass it up anytime I see your name. I wish you no harm however I wish you would
    consider giving up your TV time to something worthwhile.

  • Anonymous

    There is nothing more tiring to watch, than two highly educated liberals engaging in a supposedly honest conversation about guns, gun ownership, and the Constitutional right to carry them. Moyers, more than anyone, understands the Power of Myth. Well, he’s full of every myth about guns that one can possibly have.

    It’s curious how assiduously liberals have kept the Constitution out of their conversations about guns.
    Liberals never engage in an honest discussion about the Constitution, or why the 2nd Amendment
    exists, and why that amendment was 2nd, and not 4th or 10th. It’s the acme of intellectual sophistry to treat the 2nd amendment as though it’s just another amendment in the mix, or the wildly foolish notion, that these amendments weren’t organized by their order of importance to safeguard a free society. It’s shocking how many liberals truly believe they are smarter than all of the founding fathers, combined.

    We now have liberal politicians attacking the 2nd amendment, some openly calling for its repeal and the need for total gun confiscation…in America.
    Bill Moyers doesn’t have a clue, and doesn’t want one. Not if it contradicts his own liberal mythology.
    There, but for the grace of us, go everyone who’s not us. Our will be done.

  • Shep


    It is good that you watch other programs. Thank you.

  • Curt Chiarelli

    I’m disturbed by the comments advocating the proliferation of conceal and carry amongst our citizenry. The average person is not a trained professional in military or law enforcement. That means misjudgment due to situational stress and the high probability that more innocent people will be hurt or killed in an armed confrontation. Please read the following essay for a fuller discussion of this issue:

  • Pete Zandt

    I couid take issue with quite a few of Mr. Diaz’s points, but there’s one that I would like to comment on.
    In response to your declaration about gun manufacturers being terrified about the outcome of cigarette makers lawsuits, well, why stop at guns and tobaccoo? Let’s go after the whiskey, wine and beer makers. They were indisuptibly the cause of more deaths and ruined lives than probably all the wars combined.

  • Anonymous

    There is a difference between guns and tobacco/alcohol-a gun can quickly kill another person, e.g. someone walking home with a bag of skittles. With tobacco and alcohol, some of us kill ourselves gradually. And remember prohibition…?

  • Anonymous

    Zimmerman is only a pawn in the game of the NRA and its legislative ally, ALEC, the American Legislative Exchange. ALEC pushes bills such as “stand your ground” on state legislators around the country. This legislation is a marketing tool for the NRA. True, Zimmerman broke no laws. But he did kill an unarmed 17 year old after stalking him and getting into a physical fight. What does this say about our laws??? The US legal system has been bought and sold when a person breaks no laws while killing an unarmed teen.

  • Rikki S

    Alcohol can contribute to killing innocent people when you combine it with a motor vehicle….

  • Rikki S

    Mr Diaz said that the CD and the ATF did not collect data about gun deaths nor the types of weapons used. Hmmmmmmm, a quick Google search and guess what? All that data is on their sites. For those sheep who blindly take what he says as gospel, do your homewark!

  • CSI America


  • Anonymous

    “Everybody knows TM was stalked and gunned down by a vigilante?” Z made the mistake of not wearing a shirt that said ‘security’ or something on it and not identifying himself. I didn’t see the trial, but just how closely did Z follow him? None of us know that. This complex had 40 break-ins and other crimes in the last year. Do u think Z was justified to be suspicious of any one out at night? Remember TM had only been there a week or two. Z probably had never seen him before. Z was the designated watchman. I say that because do u think anyone else was going to stand up and say I want to interrupt what I’m doing and go out at 10:00 at night and possibly cross paths with a wrongdoer?

  • Anonymous

    The residents there were probably delighted that Z was doing the security duties and they didn’t have to. Has anyone asked the question “how many crimes didn’t happen there because Z was patrolling at night?” Which do u think should take precedence: that dozens of people in the complex and their property are somewhat protected or some Black teenager might be insulted? If TM felt threatened he had an escape route. There was no need for him to beat up anyone. Z’s back was against the sidewalk and had no escape route.

  • Diksum

    says Trayvon Martin, the victim, is forever silenced. In fact, George
    Zimmerman is the victim who forever silenced Martin, the criminal

  • CSI America

    Criminal assailant? How about defending himself against a nut with a gun.

  • Liz

    You are the one that is misinformed. That rumor that no Bushmaster AR15 was used in the Newtown Massacre was debunked a long time ago by many credible sources.. It was a shotgun that was left in the car. As a gun-rights advocate, you are doing us and yourself no favors by repeating falsehoods. You are just continuing to foster the idea that we are tin-foil hat-wearing idiots without a shred of empathy for anyone killed by a gun. We have to be better than that. We have to SMARTER than that.

  • Liz

    *We have to “be” smarter than that.* Ha! Of all the lines to make a typo!

  • Anonymous

    What? Actually u don’t know and I don’t know what TM knew when he attacked GZ. I’d say common sense would tell u TM didn’t know this until he was on top beating GZ. The law and courtroom decisions are based on common sense. Just how retarded are u people? If u can’t handle our judicial system maybe u should find another country like Sudan.

  • da

    where? I can”t find them?

  • Eric H

    Trayvon thought he was tougher when he started the fight. When he was winning he told George that he (George) was going to die tonight. Luck of the draw

  • Free_Man

    Please help me understand, how do we know what was said and/or done by GZ and TM when they encountered each other? I have seen no video or audio or heard no witness testimony on this period of time. I am very interested in the facts that some seem to have on this topic.

  • CSI America

    Is that what he “told him” — were you on the premises?

  • Pete Zandt

    If you see the comment Mr Diaz said, he sort of mentioned …”and other evil industries..” under his breath. I saw it as a reference to alcohol. Linking cars directly as a cause of dui death and injury is just as rediculous as associating guns with crime. Alcohol however can. Maybe the threat of lawsuits against Budweiser saved the gun industry?

  • bhaggen

    What Diaz said was true but misleading. The CD/ATF doesn’t tabulate those stats. They are regulatory agencies. The FBI does! Google “FBI homicide data table 8″

  • bhaggen

    Don’t forget about Americas favorite pastime; baseball!…..As in bats! More people are beat to death than are killed by rifles, shotguns, misc.

  • bhaggen

    And we all know that law enforcement personnel don’t let “situational stress” lead to misjudgment. Od thing; states with concealed carry laws see a DROP in their overall violent crime rate. Thank God & pass the ammunition! AMEN!

  • bhaggen

    Yea, Zimmerman “stalked” the self described street fighter, but then the hunter became the hunted. That’s what happens when you bring your “fists of fury” to a gunfight. I taught my son to avoid confrontations at all cost. Your foolish pride could get you killed.

  • bhaggen

    Well put. You are 100% correct. We have to hold ourselves to a higher standard.

  • Pete Zandt

    Hitting the brain stem is the only way to instantly die, unless your in Hollywood, and it’s a very small target.

  • Anonymous

    “walking home….” NOT
    He was repeatedly bashing GZ head into the concrete sidewalk.

  • Anonymous

    then don’t attack someone, don’t try to rob, rape or beat someone–because…..THEY MIGHT BE ARMED

  • Anonymous

    Why do you say “stalking?” I say “following” an unknown person in a neighborhood riddled with crime; in other words–DOING HIS JOB

  • Anonymous

    Too bad no one taught Zimmerman that. And of course no one knows they are going to a gunfight when someone brings a gun to a fistfight but conceals it.

  • Curt Chiarelli

    Misjudgment during violent confrontations will always happen, but it is less likely to happen when trained law enforcement officers – not vigilantes – are involved.

    And your correlation between crime rate reduction and C&C laws is a false one. There are many other sociological and economic factors that play into this – with or without your god’s blessing.

  • bhaggen

    The problem with “trained” law enforcement is they are very rarely held personally accountable for their actions. The Dorner case as an example. Police were on the lookout for a BIG black guy in a silver full-sized truck. They blasted 2 little Latino women in a blue Tacoma delivering newspapers! Their truck looked like the Bonnie & Clyde car. Thank God they weren’t killed! Too many Barneys, not enough Andys, I always say.
    Since the only debate is whether CCW laws caused the drop in violent crime; OR had no effect on the decrease, one thing is certain; the carnage YOU predicted hasn’t come to pass either! You’re right though; the sociological & economic effects of an armed citizenry on career criminals does play into this. When offenders in prison were asked what they feared more, the police or an armed citizen, I’ll give you 2 guesses what the resounding reply was! “Facts to a liberal are like daylight to a vampire”

  •‎ Curt Chiarelli

    I predicted nothing. And the only way to deal with corrupt or incompetent policemen is to respect the rule of law and go through the proper channels to report/remove them from the force (not a quick ‘n’ easy fix, which why most Americans rarely go this route), not to exacerbate things by taking the law into their own hands.

    All of your arguments rely heavily on assumption, false syllogisms and ad hominem attacks. This is not a sign of maturity and clarity – the only qualities compatible with responsible gun ownership. They are the mindset that produces the tragic consequences seen in the Trayvon Martin case.

  • bhaggen

    Is that what happened? — were you on the premises?