BILL MOYERS: This week on Moyers & Company…

MICHELLE ALEXANDER: If we are going to build a movement, it's going to have to be a movement that begins in our churches, in our faith communities, in our neighborhoods, in our schools. One where people really wake up and say, "We are going to build a kind of democracy that we deserve."


SUSAN BURTON in SUSAN: This house is the beginning of "A New Way of Life." I got it in 1998 and fashioned a house for women who had been incarcerated and that's where I started. I didn't know I was on my way to creating something that would have the ability to change lives.

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BILL MOYERS: Welcome. Last month in Sydney, Australia, they threw an annual event called the Festival of Dangerous Ideas. One of the main speakers was David Simon, the writer and producer who created “The Wire” and “Treme,” two television series that vividly portray the vast gap between rich and poor. Nothing drives that great divide home, he said, like our prison system.

DAVID SIMON: You're seeing the underclass hunted through a war on dangerous drugs allegedly that is in fact merely a war on the poor and has turned us into the most incarcerative state in the history of mankind, at this point. In terms of just the sheer numbers of people we've put in American prisons […] No other country on the face of the earth jails people at the number and rate that we are.

BILL MOYERS: He’s right, of course. During the past 30 years, the number of inmates in federal custody has grown by 800 percent, and half of them are serving sentences for drug offenses. According to The Sentencing Project, an advocacy group dedicated to changing how we think about crime and punishment, “more than 60 percent of the people in prison are now racial and ethnic minorities.” This book woke people up. “The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness,” by Michelle Alexander. She was my guest more than three years ago when the book was first published.

An outstanding work of scholarship on how our war on drugs, our harsh mandatory minimum sentencing, and racism have converged to create a caste system in this country very much like the one under Jim Crow segregation laws. None of us at the time anticipated the powerful impact her book would have.

It became a best-seller, spurred an even wider conversation about justice and inequality, and transformed Michelle Alexander from attorney and professor to an activist and advocate for an end to our dehumanizing penal system.

Michelle Alexander, welcome.

MICHELLE ALEXANDER: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

BILL MOYERS: When the book came out one reviewer called it the bible of a social movement. Have you seen the apostles and the disciples and the church spreading? Have you seen the signs of a movement?

MICHELLE ALEXANDER: Yes. And it has me so encouraged. As I travel from city to city, and I've been speaking in churches and at universities, I've been speaking inside prisons and reentry centers, just an incredible range of venues, I see over and over again people who are dedicating their lives now to ending the system of mass incarceration, to raising consciousness. People of faith who are organizing their church communities, organizing within mosques, holding study circles, holding film festivals and then organizing and mobilizing their memberships. Or their congregations.

I'm especially encouraged by formerly incarcerated people who are finding their voice and organizing to man the restoration of their basic civil and human rights. Organizations like All of Us or None which has successfully, you know, achieve Ban the Box legislation.

BILL MOYERS: Ban the Box?

MICHELLE ALEXANDER: Ban the Box on employment applications, the, you know, box on employment applications that asks that dreaded question, "Have you ever been convicted of a felony?" And of course it doesn't matter whether you've been convicted of a felony a few weeks ago or 40 years ago, for the rest of your life, you're labeled a felon and then subject to legal discrimination, for the rest of your life.

BILL MOYERS: What do those ex-felons, what have they been telling you about what it's like to come out and try to get back into the society to which they have paid for their sins?

MICHELLE ALEXANDER: I think it's just an extraordinary challenge. And I think most people have this sense that when you're released from prison, well, yeah, life is hard. But if you really dedicate yourself, pull yourself up by the bootstraps, you know, knock on enough doors, you'll get that job, you'll get your life back together. It may be hard but if you really try, you can do it.

But what I've learned, you know, over the years from working with many formerly incarcerated people, and forming close friendships with many people who have been released from prison, is that it's not just hard, it's often impossible. You're released from prison, often with, you know, maybe $20 in your pocket. Have nowhere to sleep.

You try to return home, maybe to your family who lives in public housing. Your family risks eviction in many places if they just even allow you to come home. Felons can be excluded from public housing. Whole families can risk eviction if they allow people with felonies to come home to them.

Trying to get a job can be next to impossible. You know, people say, "Well, they could get a job at, you know, Burger King or some, you know, minimum wage job." No actually, you know, many low-wage jobs are, for all practical purposes, off-limits to people who have felonies. Hundreds of professional licenses are off-limits to people who have felonies.

In my state in Ohio, until just recently, you couldn't even get a license to be a barber if you'd been convicted of a felony. Food stamps may be off-limits to you if you've been convicted of a drug felony. You know, what are people released from prison expected to do? Apparently what we expect them to do is to pay hundreds or thousands of dollars in fees, fines, court costs, accumulative back child support, which continues to accrue while you're in prison.

And in a growing number of states you're actually expected to pay back the cost of your imprisonment. And paying back all these fees, fines and court costs may be a condition of your probation or parole. And then if you're one of the lucky few, the very few who even manages to get a job straight out of prison, up to 100 percent of your wages can be garnished to pay back all those fees, fines, court costs.

BILL MOYERS: How do you explain this, given the fact that this is a society that celebrates second chances, for politicians in particular, a society that is built around the theme of renewal, born again and yet, doesn't extend that same act of forgiveness to people who have paid for their sins.

MICHELLE ALEXANDER: Well, we say we're a society that supports second chances. But in reality, we're not. And I think the reason-- to fully understand what's happened in this country, with respect to mass incarceration, you have to look back at least 40 years to the law and order movement that was born in the midst of the Civil Rights movement.

You know, when Civil Rights advocates were beginning to violate segregation laws and sit-in at lunch counters and desegregate trains and busses violating what they believed were unjust laws-- segregationists said, you know, "This is leading to the breakdown of the respect for law. We need law and order in this country." And the call for law and order was in direct response to the Civil Rights movement and the non-violent, civil disobedience the protesters were engaged in.

But this law and order movement began to take on a life of its own as crime rates began to rise in urban areas and some politicians began to say, you know, "This rise in crime is a symptom of this attitude of lawlessness that is spreading through the nation. We need to get tough. We need to crack down. We need law and order."

And as I've documented at great lengths in the book, and many other political scientists and historians have as well, the get tough movement and the war on drugs really is traceable to a backlash against the gains of African-Americans in the Civil Rights movement and a radical shift in mentality that occurred where as a nation we ended the war on poverty and declared the war on drugs. A wave of punitiveness really swept the nation on the heels of the Civil Rights movement. And this attitude-- has infected not only our criminal justice system but our education system that now has a zero tolerance policy for school discipline infractions. And has led to this prison building boom unlike anything the world has ever seen.

BILL MOYERS: How have mandatory minimum sentences contributed to that?

MICHELLE ALEXANDER: Well, mandatory minimum sentences ensures that you will get the harshest possible sentence under law. The mandatory minimum sentence. And so it shifts power to the prosecutor so the prosecutors can then say to you, "Well, you take this plea or else you're going to get this harsh mandatory minimum sentence." And it gives prosecutors the power to, you know, encourage plea deals, you know, in a federal system. I think 97 to 98 percent of all, you know, charged cases result in a plea, not a trial because people are terrified of facing these harsh mandatory minimum sentences. And it ensures that it's up to the prosecutor, not the judge, you know, what kind of sentence you receive. And mandatory minimum sentences has a lot to do with the exponential increase in our prison population in the United States.

And today, you know, even in this era of Obama, in this time of supposed-color blindness, we now have created a system of mass incarceration, a penal system unprecedented in world history. We have the highest rate of incarceration in the world, dwarfing the rates of even highly-repressive regimes like Russia or China or Iran. And the majority of the increase in incarceration in the United States have been among impoverished people of color who, once they're swept into the system, are then stripped of the very rights supposedly won in the Civil Rights movement. And yet, the topic of mass incarceration has been one, you know, that has been rarely raised.

BILL MOYERS: Is there research that confirms that the backlash is against black criminals or against criminals, just crime?

MICHELLE ALEXANDER: Well, there is. There's an enormous amount of research that suggests that the backlash and the punitive impulse was not simply in response to crime but was much more deeply connected to racial attitudes, racial fears and anxieties. And in fact, you know, the political strategist who conceived of the get tough movement and the war on drugs quite deliberately used not so subtle racial appeals and racial code language with the purpose of trying to exploit both conscious and unconscious racial biases and stereotypes for political gain. The Southern strategy.

BILL MOYERS: By which Richard Nixon was elected president.

MICHELLE ALEXANDER: Yes, yes. The basis of the Southern strategy was using these kind of racially coded get tough appeals on issues of crime and welfare to appeal to poor and working class whites particularly in the South who were anxious about, threatened by, resentful of many of the gains of African-Americans in the Civil Rights movement.

And to be fair, I think we have got to acknowledge that poor and working class whites really had their world rocked by the Civil Rights movement. You know, wealthy whites could send their kids to private schools, give their kids all of the advantages that wealth has to offer. But poor and working class whites in the South, many of whom were themselves struggling for survival, who are desperately poor, often illiterate. They were the ones who might have to ship their kids across town to go to a school they believed were inferior. It was they who were suddenly forced to compete on equal times for limited jobs with this whole group of people they've been taught their whole lives to believe were inferior to them. And this state of affairs did create an enormous amount of fear, resentment and anxiety and an enormous political opportunity.

BILL MOYERS: What about now? How do you see that playing out?

MICHELLE ALEXANDER: Well, I see it most obviously in the immigration debate. Today we see that this fear of immigrants coming across the border to take jobs and to take educational resources and who are going to drain the tax base of your county. These fears that they are coming to take from you is leading and has led to another for get tough movement. Get tough on them, those immigrants who have violated the law by crossing over. And this wave of punitiveness now directed towards immigrants is leading to the same kind of indifference towards their basic humanity that we have seen in the war on drugs and the get tough movement that led to the rise of mass incarceration. I mean, race has been used as a wedge again and again throughout American history to divide the lower classes, if you will. And to create an environment in which poor and working class people are pit against one another.

But that does not mean that, you know, all or even most poor or working class white folks are harboring any conscious racial resentments. I know that there are those folks out there, for sure. But I think much of it lies in the unconscious, stereotypes and fears and biases that we all have within us that get exploited in these moments where groups are scapegoated and fears are stoked, resulting in, you know, the emergence of these new systems. I mean, we are having mass deportation today at the same time as we are having mass incarceration.

BILL MOYERS: Mass deportation, I must say, by a black president.

MICHELLE ALEXANDER: Absolutely. It's one of the great ironies. Just as it's, you know, an irony that the greatest escalation of the drug war was under President Clinton who, you know, many African-Americans called our first black president.

BILL MOYERS: I remember that.

MICHELLE ALEXANDER: And it was President Clinton, you know, a Democrat, who escalated the drug war far beyond what President Reagan or President Nixon had even dreamed possible. And it was the Clinton administration that championed laws banning drug offenders even from federal financial aid for schooling upon their release. Banning drug offenders and people with criminal convictions from, you know, public housing. You know, to a large extent many of the rules, laws, policies and practices that now constitute this caste-like system were championed by a Democratic president administration desperate to win back those so-called white swing voters. The folks who had defected from the Democratic party in the wake of the Civil Rights movement.

BILL MOYERS: I was going to ask you what do you think is the dynamic that drove Clinton and now drives Obama? Is it to satisfy the base they think most hostile to them?

MICHELLE ALEXANDER: I think so. And, you know, what I find most unfortunate though, of the politics that have developed over the years, the politics of trying to appease, you know, poor and working class whites not by building explicitly multiracial, multi-ethnic, you know, coalitions and alliances that encourage solidarity across racial and class lines. But instead by kind of tossing these symbolic bones, you know, saying, "Well, we're escalating the drug war. We're getting tough on them. Don't you feel better now? We're willing to get tough by deporting even more immigrants than ever have been deported before. Don't you feel better now?"

We fall into the trap of really playing to people's, you know, baser fears and instincts rather than risking perhaps some short-term losses, but building the kind of unity and the kind of solidarity across race and class lines which I believe would help to ensure a much more stable foundation for the kind of multi-racial, multi-ethnic, inclusive democracy that I would hope for. Which is why my great hope does not lie with President Obama or our elected politicians no matter how well-meaning or well-intentioned they may be.

BILL MOYERS: You have talked recently in a way different from how you were talking three and a half years ago. You've been talking about moving out of your own lane. What are you suggesting?

MICHELLE ALEXANDER: Yeah, well, you know, right around the anniversary of the march on Washington I found myself doing a fair amount of internal reflection about my own role at this time in building the kind of movement that I would hope for, for social justice.

And what I had to admit to myself is that for the last few years, you know, I have spent all of my working hours talking about mass incarceration and trying to raise consciousness about what has happened in this country, how we've managed to birth a caste-like system again. You know, that there are more African-Americans under correctional control today, in prison or jail, on probation or parole than were enslaved in 1850.

That we've created this vast new system again. And to try to raise consciousness so that people would wake up to this reality. And I realize that as well-intentioned as all that work was it was leading me to a place of relatively narrow thinking.

That I wasn't connecting the dots between other kinds of social injustices that are occurring here in the United States and abroad to the work that I was committed to and the cause that I had been committed to over the years.

BILL MOYERS: It was a larger breakdown of democracy that affected more people than African-Americans in prison or immigrants being deported. You're saying that the system has broken down.

MICHELLE ALEXANDER: Absolutely. The entire system has been broken down. And it's really I think, at its root about a failure on our part to develop a moral consensus about how we treat one another. You know, for me, I have to care. If I care about a young man serving, you know, 25 years to life for a minor drug crime. If I care about him and care about his humanity, ought I not also care equally about a young woman who's facing deportation back to a country she hardly knows and had lived in only as a child and can barely speak the language? And ought I not be as equally concerned about her fate as well?

Ought I not be equally concerned about a family whose loved ones were just killed by drones in Afghanistan? Ought I not care equally for all? And that really was Dr. King's insistence at the end of his life. That we ought to care about the Vietnamese as much as we care and love our people at home.

So, I think we ought to commit ourselves to building a human rights movement in this country, a human rights movement for education, not incarceration, for jobs, not jails. A movement that will end all these forms of legal discrimination against people released from prison, discrimination that denies them basic human rights to work, to shelter, to education, to food.

BILL MOYERS: You don't think practical politics leads you where you want to go?

MICHELLE ALEXANDER: No. I think that the system, as it is designed today, with the amount of money that influences who gets elected and who even has a shot of holding office in the United States today. I think that the way the system is currently designed does not allow for that kind of policy change to occur. We're going to have to build a movement that changes the nature of politics itself, that takes money and the profound influence of money out of politics and is one that is not, you know, a win/lose, winner take all kind of system. Today we have Democrats and Republicans battling it out with people joining camps and thinking that somehow through this war demonizing the opposition we're going to come up with solutions that genuinely benefit all. I think that's deeply misguided. We're going to have to become more creative about how we do democracy in the United States. But it begins I believe, with people in their communities organizing around the issues that matter most to them

BILL MOYERS: Aren't you talking in some instances about ghettoized communities that, where unemployment is high, families are in distress, schools are falling apart and there are very few life support systems. How do they organize?

MICHELLE ALEXANDER: It's incredibly difficult. Incredibly difficult. But it's not impossible. I'm inspired by people like Susan Burton, for example. She's executive director of an organization in Los Angeles called A New Way of Life. And Susan is an African-American woman who became addicted to crack-cocaine after a Los Angeles Police Department Officer ran over her five-year-old boy. And if Susan, you know, had been middle class, upper-middle class, she might have had a good health care plan and might've been able to get good legal drugs to help her cope with her depression and her grief.

But things were different for Susan. She became addicted to crack-cocaine and spent 15 years cycling in and out of prison and jail. Every time, tossed out onto the street, unable to get work or even access to drug treatment, cycling in and out for 15 years. Finally she gets access to a private drug treatment program, becomes clean, is given a job and decides to dedicate her life to ensuring that no other woman would ever have to go through what she has gone through.

And now Susan runs five safe homes for formerly incarcerated women in Los Angeles, providing them desperately needed shelter, support, finding work, reunifying with their families. But beyond that, she is part of All of Us or None and is organizing formally incarcerated people in California and nationwide to demand the restoration of their basic civil and human rights.

BILL MOYERS: So they--

MICHELLE ALEXANDER: And what's happening is phenomenal.

BILL MOYERS: So they could become full citizens again.

MICHELLE ALEXANDER: And with the leadership of organizations like All of Us or None, they've succeeded in banning the box on employment applications in the entire state of California. You know, there're enormous victories that are being achieved precisely because the people who we have written off and viewed as disposable are reclaiming their voice, standing up, speaking out, organizing even as they struggle to survive.

And so, you know, my own view is that in building this movement we've got to be able to do a number of things simultaneously. We've got to be able and committed to building an underground railroad for people who are released from prison, people who need desperate help finding shelter and food as they try to make a break for real freedom. But we've also got to be willing to work for abolition at the same time. Abolition of the system of mass incarceration as a whole.

And I see people like Susan Burton and so many others miraculously managing to do these things at the same time. And so I hope that, you know, people will donate generously to these organizations which often don't receive the level of funding from foundations they deserve and also find ways to donate their time and their energy to this work and be part of this movement in a direct way.

BILL MOYERS: Aren't there some signs of progress on the issues that concern you?

Attorney General Eric Holder has begun to advocate for some reform of our mandatory minimum sentences. Here he is speaking to the American Bar Association. Take a listen.

ATTORNEY GENERAL ERIC HOLDER: I have today mandated a modification of the Justice Department's charging policies so that certain low-level, non-violent drug offenders who have no ties to large scale organizations, gangs or cartels will no longer be charged with offenses that impose draconian mandatory minimum sentences. They--

MICHELLE ALEXANDER: It's a very encouraging sign. It suggests that at least for a small category of cases, mandatory minimum sentences will no longer be automatically sought by federal prosecutors. And it's a positive step in the right direction.

It doesn't go all the way. Mandatory sentences are still on the books and will still apply to thousands of people who, you know, may be dubbed as having some kind of gang-related connections and of course those kind of connections do not have to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

And, you know, in a number of states across the United States in recent years mandatory minimum sentences for drug crimes, non-violent drug crimes have been reduced. And we've seen for the first time in 40 years state prison populations beginning to decline. The federal prison population is still rising. And most of the people who are incarcerated in federal prisons are there due to drug offenses and immigration violations.

So we still see, you know, the federal prison population rising. But the state prison population's beginning to decline. And that is reason for hope. But my concern is that the primary reason that legislatures have begun to ease up some of their harsh mandatory minimum sentences is not because of genuine concern for the people whose lives have been destroyed or the communities that have been decimated by the drug war. But instead these changes have been motivated largely because of the fiscal crisis.

BILL MOYERS: They can't afford these prisons anymore

MICHELLE ALEXANDER: Yes. These states find that there's no way to maintain these massive prison systems without raising taxes on the predominately white middle class. So they've been willing to downsize a bit.

BILL MOYERS: Well, take California. Former Governor Schwarzenegger said they had been investing too much in prisons and not enough in schools. But ultimately it turns out that what he was proposing wasn't altogether downsizing. It was privatizing the prison so that the responsibility for them was transferred to for-profit corporations. And I ask you what happens when there's a profit motive to send people to prison?

MICHELLE ALEXANDER: Well, when there's a profit motive it ensures that more and more people will be locked up and remain locked up in order for companies to maintain their profit margins. You know, the largest prison company, private prison company in the United States, The Corrections Corporation of America, sent a letter to 48 governors basically with an offer: we will buy your state-run prisons in exchange for a promise, a guarantee, that you will keep these prisons filled at least 90 percent capacity.

You know, these kinds of agreements and incentives are not in the public interest. You know, what would be in the public interest is, you know, a commitment to reducing crime so that our prison's empty. But instead, private prisons want a commitment from state governors that these prisons will be kept filled by any means necessary which virtually ensures a high-level of commitment by politicians to these get tough measures, mandatory sentences, war on drugs, to keep prison beds filled, so.

BILL MOYERS: In fact, Arizona, Oklahoma, Louisiana and I believe Virginia all have privatized prisons that are kept at 95 to 100 percent occupancy because they have guaranteed that occupancy to the private industry. Even if the crime rate falls.

MICHELLE ALEXANDER: Absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, that's what's most worrisome is that they will insist and have insisted on keeping their beds full even if crime rates are relatively low. And today, you know, crime rates nationally are at historical lows. But incarceration rates are higher than they ever have been

BILL MOYERS: Well, some people argue, as you know, that the crime rate nationally is down because we've been locking up the people who commit the crimes.

MICHELLE ALEXANDER: Yes, which has been proven to be demonstrably false. You know, if you look at the data it shows that, you know, states that have been on an incarceration binge do not necessarily have lower crime rates than states that have incarcerated people at a lower rate. There is no clear connection between incarceration rates and crime rates. And in fact, in cities like Chicago and in New Orleans, New Orleans is the incarceration capital of the world, you know, they have some of the highest violent crime rates in the country as well.

And the same can be said for Chicago. In fact, you know, a growing number of researchers and sociologists now believe that incarceration rate, high levels of incarceration, actually can be a contributor to high crime rates because you’re incarcerating such a large percentage of a community or a population, you're ensuring that people are going to be locked out of work and locked out of housing and living, you know, in a state of desperation for the rest of their lives.

So I would hope that as we build this movement to end mass incarceration, we will not be tempted to make purely fiscal arguments about the need for reform but ensure that the way we engage in our advocacy helps to inspire much greater care, compassion and concern for the very people who have been locked up, locked out and that we have been taught to despise.

BILL MOYERS: But when you look back historically at slavery, condoned by many people who quoted the bible, when you look at what happened after the Civil War. It took the Civil War to free the slaves and then they were put back into a form of slavery with a coerced labor, forced labor.

And use of Jim Crow laws, you referred to. You look at the racial violence that extended right on through our time. Where do you get any hope that this ideal of compassion, that we can create a society, such as you describe, given our conflicted, often savage past?

MICHELLE ALEXANDER: I get my hope from this revolutionary idea that doesn't seem to die in the United States. This idea that all people are created equal with certain inalienable rights, including life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That was a revolutionary idea in the Declaration of Independence. And it was wholly incomplete. It was all men are created equal and implicitly slaves were left out, you know, poor people were left out.

BILL MOYERS: Women were left out.

MICHELLE ALEXANDER: Women were left out. Right. But it was a revolutionary idea then and it remains a revolutionary idea today. This idea that keeps changing and growing and expanding as our consciousness changes and grows and expands that all human beings are created equal and have certain inalienable rights, it won't die. It didn't die with slavery, you know, a war was necessary to end slavery. But this idea has continued to survive and it's continued to grow. And we see now that in the United States we do believe that women are equal. We have an idea that people of all races are created equal. We are now beginning to see that depending on, regardless of your sexual orientation, you are equal.

This idea itself has not died. And so I think the worst thing we can do is to fall into a sort of cynicism where we imagine nothing can ever be done. You know, these new systems of control just keep being born. This is just part of human nature. Well, it may be part of human nature to fear one another. But there is also a part of human nature I believe that wants to see the equality, even divinity, in each other and to honor it. And that spirit remains alive in the United States today. And if we give up on it then I think we're giving up on the dream of truly thriving equitable multiracial, multiethnic democracy.

BILL MOYERS: Michelle Alexander, thank you very much for being with me.

MICHELLE ALEXANDER: Thank you for having me.

BILL MOYERS: In our conversation, you heard Michelle Alexander single out a woman named Susan Burton as an inspiration – both to her and to the movement to reform the criminal justice system and reclaim basic civil and human rights for people released from incarceration.

Because of Susan Burton, many women have found shelter, a job, and camaraderie during that rocky period after they walk out of prison into what otherwise would be a cold and treacherous world.

She herself almost didn’t make it. Burton served six prison sentences in California for drug-related felonies. She’s never forgotten what she heard a prison guard say as she walked away for what turned out to be the last time: “I’ll see you back in a little while.”

After all, 65 percent of the state’s parolees do return to jail within three years, and nearly a third of them within the first six months.

But thanks to treatment and resolve, Susan Burton has stayed clean and free. Today her Los Angeles organization, "A New Way of Life," runs five houses offering help to women struggling to rebuild their lives. Her story is told in a film released last year, produced and directed by Tessa Blake and Emma Hewitt. Here's an excerpt:

: Susan

WOMAN in SUSAN: This is Susan Burton, she's the founder and executive of A New Way of Life, and this is Samantha--

SAMANTHA in SUSAN: Jenkins--

SUSAN BURTON in SUSAN: [Released from prison 15 years ago] And whatever we can do to help you pursue your goals, you know-- we're here for you. What kind of plans you have?

SAMANTHA in SUSAN: [Released From Prison 24 Hours Ago] I plan on going to school.

SUSAN in SUSAN: Whatever you need to, you know, get your school going, you let us know.

SAMANTHA in SUSAN: Yeah, okay.

SUSAN in SUSAN: We want to keep you grounded and connected.



SAMANTHA in SUSAN: Thank you.

SUSAN in SUSAN: All right.


SUSAN in SUSAN: You're welcome.

SUSAN in SUSAN: A New Way of Life is a home.

WOMAN in SUSAN: We're going to get you situated and we're going to clean everything--

SUSAN in SUSAN: It's a home where women can come and feel accepted and supported and safe.

WOMAN in SUSAN: If you find any problems, just let me know. We can help you get yourself where you want to be in life.

SUSAN in SUSAN It's home for so many women who have no place to go.

TITLE CARD: Most inmates who enter the penal system are likely to return to prison within three years of their release.

ANGELA in SUSAN: [Released From Prison 11 Months Ago] I was locked up for four years, that's a long time. I was happy to be out, but still scared because, you know, I guess because we're creatures of habit and you want to feel secure and safe. They drive you to the bus station and you know, they give you $200 and they buy your ticket out of your money and put you on a bus.

And you're just headed to wherever. And so, I arrived downtown LA and it was really scary-- it was really scary. And I looked like I came from prison, you know, I was dusty looking, you know, with jeans and a paper bag. Everybody knows that you're from prison; they know, just by the way you look and they know. You get approached by everybody. There were people asking you if you needed a ride, telling you that you look fine-- drug addicts, people living that life and you know they are. It's so easy to get lured, especially if you're scared and I'm going to be honest, I was scared and I felt like I was just standing there buck naked.

I didn't have any place to go, I really didn't. And I called Miss Burton and I told her, I said, "I received a letter from you and you said for me to call you and that you would pick me up." And she says, "Where are you?" And I told her. She says, "I'll be there in about 15 minutes."

And she came and picked me up. To come into a place and be able to drink out of a glass and not plastic, to sleep on a mattress and not metal and to have food, have choices, it's just-- stuff people take for granted. Miss Burton is so sweet. She's a good lady. I'm glad she picked me up.

SUSAN in SUSAN: This house is the beginning of A New Way of Life. I got it in 1998 and fashioned a house for women who had been incarcerated and that's where I started. When I left prison, I went to treatment and got a job and, you know, I saved the money and I saved about $12,000. Yeah, and I mean, I saved every dime. Some months, I didn't spend but $40 a month for anything that I needed.

And everything else, I saved. And I didn't understand why or what I was saving for. I didn't know I was on my way to creating something that would have the ability to change lives. I tried to give help in the same fashion that I had received it.

There was a lot of movement in the house, a lot of cooking and TV watching and healing going on. And a part of it was my healing, also. I relate really closely with the women. I understand what they're feeling-- I've felt the same thing. I've had the same fears, the same anger, the same frustration.

I lost my son and he was accidentally killed by a police officer and I just didn't know what to do. My whole world just spun. The pain of everything was so unbearably present in my body, I think if you looked at me, you could almost see it or touch it. And it was all the disappointment, all the grief, all the sorrow that had to be addressed. So I was able to address it through someone helping me.

TITLE CARD: Residents of the house are required to remain sober and to attend weekly recovery meetings.

STACEY in SUSAN: [Released From Prison 9 Months Ago] I am about to go visit with my daughter. I'm a little bit fearful because of the way my lifestyle was a few years back when I was in my addiction. I started prostituting myself and that is the worst thing ever, in her eyes.

So I don't know where we're going to go with this or how we're going to get through it, but I'm going to try talking to her and hopefully, she'll open up and we can get past it.

Dominique has some resentments towards me because of my addiction and I was in and out of prison. This is a picture of me when I got my GED in prison; I was in prison when I took this picture.

I went to prison for involuntary manslaughter. I left in 1989. I didn't come home until 1996. I was happy to come back into my daughter's life, but I didn't know how she would accept me because I had been gone so long.

You know, I would stay clean and sober and then I'd go back to that lifestyle again, so I knew that I had to work hard to earn her trust again.

DOMINIQUE in SUSAN: I couldn't trust her. So through her addiction, as I got older, I knew I couldn't trust her. I didn't trust her with anything; I didn't trust her with my child, I didn't trust her with me.

She went back to jail a lot. Parole violation after parole violation, repeatedly. I'll never forget the day that I had to kick the freaking door down to get to my mom who was getting high in the next room, who stole my son's piggy bank to go buy drugs. I couldn't think--

STACEY in SUSAN: I never stole your son's-- no, I did not, Dominique.

DOMINIQUE in SUSAN: Mom, there's a lot of stuff that you say you didn't-- you don't think you did, but I think that you're-- when you were active in your drug use, you don't remember a lot of stuff. I mean you hurt a lot of people.


DOMINIQUE in SUSAN: And you have a lot of relationships to fix. You can't hide the things, the mistakes you make. You can't act like they didn't happen or push them aside and think you can start all over.

STACEY in SUSAN:I'm getting better. I'm not there yet, but—100 percent, but I'm working on it.



DOMINIQUE in SUSAN: I guess that's all I can ask for.

STACEY in SUSAN: Okay, and you got it.

DOMINIQUE in SUSAN: Thanks. A long time coming.

STACEY in SUSAN: You're welcome. Give me a hug.

ANGELA in SUSAN: This is my room and this is my bed and I was right here on the computer. I like the fact that I know how to use it. It's so cool, I just wish I could use it to get a job. I'm healthy, I'm employable, I'm willing. I've been out of prison for just about a year and I've been looking for a job ever since I've been out. I was a nurse before and I had never had a resume and I just walked in and they would hire me right on the spot. Now I have all these resume, these certificates and all this stuff, but it doesn't matter because my background is in the way.

SUSAN in SUSAN: We don't get a lot of money here. We barely make it from month to month keeping the doors open, keeping food in the houses, keeping the lights on, keeping staff paid. That invoice should’ve been paid, right? And then do-- how much am I short from payroll? That's still short. Okay. All right. Bye.

It was 1999. I was a few months sober and it angered me that I would be treated so cruel and caged and chained for a drug charge. And I knew thousands of women just like me who had been negatively impacted by the War on Drugs, who were incarcerated on a turnstile going in and out of prison, not able to get help.

Imagine $70,000 a year to keep us contained, just squandering public funds. And I just got a notice saying that mental health services have been defunded. Hell, they could’ve sent me to Yale. For all those years and got so many degrees. You know six prison sentences. You know, six degrees, right? If it’s not one is two, or three.

TITLE CARD: The female prison population grew by 832 percent from 1977 to 2007, due to the war on drugs.

ANGELA in SUSAN: There's a chicken in the backyard. Hi, there. Are you thirsty or do you want something to eat? I think he's hungry. He's looking for food. I had a big tax bill and I just panicked. I did. And started talking to a friend and said, "I can help you out, you can make some quick money selling drugs." I was selling crack, crystal, marijuana, Vicodin, Viagra, everything I could get my hands on. I was just going to do it for a little while, pay my bills and be done.

But that didn't happen. I got four years. I went to see a social worker to sign up for food stamps. She asked me if I had a conviction or anything like that on my record and of course, I told her the truth, you know. I said, "Yes, I have."

And she said, "What?" And I said, "For sales of you know, narcotics." And she says, "Oh, you're not eligible for food stamps." They won't give me food stamps because of my conviction; they won't give me low-income housing because of my conviction and trying to find a job, it's like, they throw your application in the trash. I feel like I'm drowning. I could call up a drug dealer right now, somebody that knows me and I don't have to have any money.

They would give me something to sell and I would pay them back and then I would be on my way. Very easy to get back into that lifestyle.

ANGELA in SUSAN: Here's another one, isn't that one pretty? They are cute. We have a yellow one; there's a yellow one, too, I shouldn't say we, we're not allowed pets, but oh well. I really like sitting here. It's a good place.

TITLE CARD: Federal law bars anyone convicted of a drug-related felony from receiving federal assistance. In most cases, this is a lifetime ban.

STACEY in SUSAN: Well, it was pretty deep, but I believe she got a chance to say a lot of things that, you know, she had been holding in.


STACEY in SUSAN: And a lot of it was hurtful.

SUSAN in SUSAN: The pain that our children incur, we just don't know how deep and how far it goes. It's taken me over ten years to receive some forgiveness for the character I was through my alcoholism and addiction. And I did the same thing that you were doing-- that you're doing now.

STACEY in SUSAN: Yeah, you are very inspiring and I consider you to be my mentor. I've never told you this, but I admire you.

SUSAN in SUSAN: Thank you.

STACEY in SUSAN: And I'm staying under your wing. You are not getting rid of me and I want to learn from you and I want to be like you.

SUSAN in SUSAN: Yeah, yeah.

STACEY in SUSAN: And give back and help others that come behind me.

SUSAN in SUSAN: Yeah, well, I don't know if I told you, but I admire you, too, and I think about you and where you're headed and it makes my heart very, very happy, because you are the reason I do what I do.

ANGELA in SUSAN: I got blessed with a job. I'm working in the laundromat. The lady that owns the laundromat is an acquaintance of Miss Burton and she gave me two days a week part-time, at $8 an hour and I am thrilled. It's keeping the washers and dryers clean and giving people change and she gave me the keys and I count money, she trusts me. I'm happy to have a job. Just awesome.

I wouldn't be able to survive on the money that I make here if I left A New Way of Life. So I need some more hours, I need to have my own housing and I need transportation. But anyway, I'm happy I have this. This is a start. One step at a time, you know?

TITLE CARD: More than 600 women have been through Susan Burton’s reentry program. 70% have not been re-incarcerated.

WOMAN 1 in SUSAN: It's chicken, ribs, sausage.

WOMAN 2 in SUSAN: There's greens in there.

WOMAN 1 in SUSAN: I'm starving.

WOMAN 2 in SUSAN: When did you start?

ANGELA in SUSAN: I started last Wednesday.

WOMAN 2 in SUSAN: Wow.

ANGELA in SUSAN: So it's just two days a week.

WOMAN 2 in SUSAN: Chasing bubbles.

ANGELA in SUSAN: I do. I'm this bubble chaser, which is okay. It's a job, you know what I'm saying? I'm thankful. You know what?

WOMAN 2 in SUSAN: You never gave up looking for a job, never.

ANGELA in SUSAN: And I'm still not giving up.

STACEY in SUSAN: I want you guys to meet my daughter, finally. Her and my grandkids will be here.

WOMAN 2 in SUSAN: Uh-huh, that's good.

WOMAN 1 in SUSAN: And things are good.

WOMAN 2 in SUSAN: That's good Stacy.

STACEY in SUSAN: Yeah, things are good.

BILL MOYERS: That’s from the film, "SUSAN," by Tessa Blake and Emma Hewitt. Not only is Ms. Burton’s work the subject of the movie, she's also been recognized far and wide for her leadership and courage. She was a member of California’s sentencing reform commission; she serves on the board of the Los Angeles Sober Living Network; and she received the Citizen Activist Award from the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University.

At our website, we’ll link you to more of her story and more about Michelle Alexander and her extraordinary book, The New Jim Crow, acclaimed as the bible of a social movement. That’s all at I’ll see you there and I’ll see you here, next time.

Watch By Segment

  • Segment: Michelle Alexander — Locked Out of America

    Bill Moyers speaks with activist Michelle Alexander about the key to unlocking our dehumanizing system of incarceration, and shares a clip from a film about an ex-convict who helps women get back on their feet after prison.

    Air Date: December 20, 2013
    Michelle Alexander_9624
    Segment: Michelle Alexander — Locked Out of America
  • Segment: Susan Burton — A New Way of Life

    Bill Moyers speaks with activist Michelle Alexander about the key to unlocking our dehumanizing system of incarceration, and shares a clip from a film about an ex-convict who helps women get back on their feet after prison.

    Air Date: December 20, 2013
    Segment: Susan Burton — A New Way of Life

Incarceration Nation

December 20, 2013

America’s prison population has exploded from 300,000 to more than two million today due to harsh sentencing policies and the 40-year-old war on drugs. This week, Bill speaks to civil rights lawyer and legal scholar Michelle Alexander about why we need to end our system of mass incarceration.

The program also includes an excerpt from the film Susan, by Tessa Blake and Emma Hewitt. It tells the story of former California inmate Susan Burton who built an organization in Los Angeles devoted to helping formerly-incarcerated women rebuild their lives.

Learn more about the production team behind Moyers & Company.

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  • fedupwithpoliticians

    Your well intended goal is, “build a movement — that begins in our churches, in our faith communities — to build a kind of democracy that we deserve.”

    Good luck with that. The reality is that black Churches have much better (compliment meaning superior) experience with that through their civil rights movement. My personal experience is that white Churches aided the despots that jailed too many people. Their dirty secret is that nearly 1 million men committed suicide between 1970 and 1996 and another 1,500,000 were jailed for not being able to pay support decrees that were beyond their ability to pay on the day that they were written. Even some in the middle class got caught up in it. For each “dead beat dad” — there’s a father who’s being punished for the sins of the deadbeats.” See “In Defense of Dead Beat Dads”, Men’s Health magazine June 2003. Too many irrational white Church leaders that participated in making those policies said nothing then and still bully or psychologically abuse those that even mention it today.

    “And has led to this prison building boom unlike anything the world has ever seen—– We have the highest rate of incarceration in the world, dwarfing the rates of even highly-repressive regimes like Russia or China or Iran”. That is a very shameful statistic, isn’t it? Try to find those that were responsible. Giroux’s contribution is his astute observation about their complete repudiation or evasion of responsibility in an “authoritarian culture”.

    Now look at Thomas Jefferson’s words below.

    “History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes”.

    Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813

    “In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own”.

    Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814

    We have seen too much of that in our time and it appears to me that the Christian Coalition was deeply involved since 1980. Robert Altemeyer, Pierson & Hacker, Mike Lofgren, and Henry Giroux all make similar observations. The Pope just joined them with his words “on the tyranny of trickle down” that was “sacralized”. That means that the problem of aiding “the deception of trickle down” emanates from within the “irrational religious right”. Only pastors could “sacralize” a federal policy.

    “I think that the way the system is currently designed does not allow for that kind of policy change to occur.” That observation is absolutely

  • CarolB

    For argument’s sake, I accept your observations as true. What are your thoughts regarding positive change? Is it hopeless?

  • Anonymous

    Millions of good books rot on shelves and basements, go to jail, nothing but old romance novels, and jesus books. Bored to tears staring at the walls for months ,years on end, with nothing to do but play cards, exercise between beds. Abysmal food, zero room to grow as a human being. All about punishment, punishment, punishment, even though there was zero opportunity to secure a investigator, or a decent attorney. You end up plea bargaining a terrible deal, because you can rot in there forever, with zero chance to provide a defense. The worst system in the western world. Steal millions on wall street or washington dc, and total immunity. Steal a car battery to feed your kids, serve life in prison with no chance at parole. I’ve met them. A totally two tier system that brutalizes the poor.

  • Anonymous

    What really fries-me – is the most dangerous criminals are supported by the taxpayer and enjoy IMPUNITY including quite a few in robes who sit on a bench! These criminals know they are exempt from law and with the exception of an occasional fall guy they suffer no consequence while freely breaking law.

  • Arianna_NL

    So asking men to help support their own children is what puts them into prison? Seriously? I’ll not fault your arguments about the need for separation of church and state, but I know too many young men that think having multiple children they don’t support is some mark of manhood. My favorite guy in the neighborhood is 87 and boasts, “I have 13 children and ONE baby momma. We’ve been married for over 60 years and I RAISED my kids!” No, not everyone needs to be married to have kids but once you have them, they don’t just “go away” when you are tired of them or their mother.

  • Arianna_NL

    I work in this type of area of community organizing and the school to prison pipeline is, unfortunately alive, well and, in a lot of places, turning a tidy profit. It is daunting, hard, grinding and often frustrating work, but it needs doing. I am not rich, never have been even “upper middle class”, but I was raised poor by parents raised in the grinding poverty of the Depression. My work these days often is teaching school children the lessons my mother taught me of “make it, make do or do without” and how to make something from “nothing”, more out of less, and the power of cooperation in pursuit of success. I often cite my mother’s maxim of, “Ask anyway, the worst they can do is say no.” to show that there are “yeses” in the world around you. I define my hope as: Helping Organize People Everywhere. No, not another non-profit……no board, no funding, no nothing except people who refuse to watch people be pushed further and further down while a few rise and rise.

  • Arianna_NL

    It is not hopeless unless you, yourself, give up.

  • Erik

    Love Michelle Alexander. However, I wish Alexander and Moyers would have started with a set up the historical context before going into detail about the plight of felons. Starting with sympathy for criminals without first giving the historical context may rub people the wrong way. I’m probably just worrying too much. I haven’t seen this problem in other interviews with Alexander. Wishing her all the best.

  • fedupwithpoliticians

    You missed the key point. For each “dead beat dad” — there’s a father who’s being punished for the sins of the deadbeats.” The decrees were beyond a man’s ability to pay on the day that they were written. Even a 14 year old girl, Daren White’s daughter, saw that “justice was beyond her father’s reach”. Read the article in the 2003 magazine. The money that was paid often didn’t get to the families either. It was a measure of the irrationality in the system at that time.

  • fedupwithpoliticians

    You have that part right about the local kid stealing a baseball and going to jail while “white collar criminals” that stole millions were pardoned. That was first documented in the 1989 book “Inside Job: Looting of the S&L’s”. Mike Lofgren more recently connected “cheap grace” for those behaviors of the business men and their politicians to the religious-right in his book, The Party is Over.

  • Anonymous

    Unless you have been behind bars and experienced the brutal trauma of smashed in a 10 by 10 ft room filled with 60 men all wearing chains for non-violent offenses, you dont know how hopeless the system is. Totted to the core. Prosecutors have 1000 % immunity. One was proven to fraudently tamper evidence to secure a conviction for a black man in texas that spent 20 years behind bars for a crime he didnt do, and even when proven of the criminal behavior of the prosecutor, there was no repercussions. A wealthy child he texas ran over and killed a family of four while drunk and got probation, Hundreds of thorsands are serving serious sentences, 10 , 20 years for simple non violent crimes. 98% conviction rate at the federal level. What does that mean to you. Well your sentence double or triples if you dare take the case to court and attempt to defend yourself. It almost as bad in the state courts. Warch the plea on frontline. Millions take a plea regardless if guilty or not. The consequences of being innocent and fighting for justice is just too high.

  • fedupwithpoliticians

    Bill, that is the really sick part of it. They supported the policies that put the men into prison and then claimed to heal them in their prison based ministries. When I found my church involved in the “hostile, irrational, and discriminatory social system”, as documented by Travis Ballard (national congress for fathers and children) at the Whitehouse in 1995, I left it.

  • fedupwithpoliticians

    I have a master’s degree in management. I wrote a 21 page document with many references about what was causing the high suicide rate among men in 1996. I shared that with 10 churches in 1996. I was ignored and shunned. I was told that ,”The educated would solve our problems”. Irrational but highly educated people in the Church and the law created the problem. That is part of Henry Giroux’s observation that the religious right ignores all other intellectual’s outside of their group. The book Echo Chamber documents the same behavior. Thank God for Bill Moyers and his guests who are too big for them to destroy! To answer your question a “new moral awakening” must occur as Theodore Roosevelt talked about in 1910. The Pope has spoken of their tyranny.

  • fedupwithpoliticians

    In 1996 I went to a lawyer in Williamsburg, outside of my town. She told me that “the legal profession had a problem with passive aggression”. That is the source of the irrational and feeling based behavior that causes them to reject “facts and reason” and to write decrees beyond a man’s ability to pay. She filed a complaint with the state bar. Nothing changed. She also said that she would not attempt to practice law in my town because it was so corrupted. So, they know that they can get away with it as you say. No group can police themselves.

  • Arianna_NL

    I’ve seen the Frontline video as well as other documentaries about this subject. I work with non-violent, first time offenders on reintegration back into their community. I am VERY aware of the racism and classism involved in our court system and do my best to use my skills in service to those that don’t usually have access to them. However, what on earth does not paying child support have to do with the rotten system of pleas and deal making?

  • Anonymous

    Its just a dirty system period, designed to maximize as many laws possible. 50000 new ones every year nationwide. Child support, breathe the air, they want to keep all these unnecessary lawyers and justices busy, regardless of their contribution to society. The only system on the planet that privitizes their prison system to make a profit. The most trivial nothing, that should be settled with a simple court discussion drags on for years, because of the nature of the legal system. How many hundreds of millions have been spent on death row inmates defense that never made $10 a hour in their life, by $300 a hour lawyers that drain the california coffers. Its all immoral and insane. Lives get destroyed for the stupidest legal crap in this society, because the most minimal legal process is extraordinaryily expensive, like our wasteful medical system. A huge segment of society suffers with zero legal represenatation , to enrich the high wages of a few. Its all related, child support, and other simple legal procedure, destroys lives and enslaves people with their assnine procedures.

  • valerie king

    Excellent discussions. I quit my bank of many years because they were investing customers money in corporate prisons. The answer seems simple. Don’t invest!

  • fedupwithpoliticians

    This will answer your question about how “not paying child support is connected to being wrongfully incarcerated”.

    Because innocent men were criminalized and jailed for not having enough money to pay the support orders that were written by irrational judges. Even medical doctors and chiropractors had their lively hoods ruined. If they couldn’t survive it, how could a blue collar worker possibly survive it? It is likely that you haven’t seen a medical doctor reduced to living in a tent in a town park. He ended his life. If you get close enough to that, the pain of just knowing that may stay with you for the rest of your life.

  • dsqs

    Is it not cheaper, safer and humane to rehabilitate and provide employment to these people than keep them in jail for very long time and also to keep them out of jail after release?

    The sentencing guidelines should focus on correction and change rather than revenge, torture and punishment.The sentencing guidelines should focus on how to rehabilitate and integrate them in to society before they become total liability for the society.

    These people should be made to work harder to payback to society for all damages. Currently the communities/Gov are getting bankrupted to pay for keeping these people in jail serving long sentences.

  • Anonymous

    I want to add my thanks to Moyers as I also see this attempt to privatize the prison system as a money-making scheme and it is not fair to some of the people who have been, and who will, in the future be incarcerated and given long sentences, especially petty and/or non-violent crimes while our greatest faction of law breakers, such as our law-breaking politicians and other prominent factions here in the USA who are, and who’ve been breaking laws all the time while never being prosecuted are free and continue breaking laws. The jails could be kept full with just these people without putting petty criminals in jail and throwing away the keys.

    Wall Street, Capitol Hill, Bankers, etc., if this segment of “society” would ever be prosecuted and sent to jail (as they so justly deserve) there would be no room for them and if the prison system is privatized, these same groups of people would be more than enough to keep the private prison system profitable for YEARS to come. So, unless they start imprisoning politicians (almost all of whom are crooked), crooked lawyers, crooked policemen, the Wall Streeters and bankers, I do not support the privatization of prisons. It’s just regular people who’re going to jail in huge numbers and it will not be a fair way of dealing with regular people while allowing the REAL crooks to not even be arrested or prosecuted, Congress and the rest of the filth on Capitol Hill would be the ones that should be incarcerated for life in order not only to support the system but deserve to be there anyway.

    ONLY when they start locking up the real perps (politicians, bankers, Capitol Hill and Wall Street crooks, etc.) will I feel good about, and then hope for privatiziation of the prison system.

  • dsqs

    It is completely rigged system in favor of rich, powerful and well connected.

    After long years of dehumanizing treatment, how can one expect normal behavior from these people after release.

  • Anonymous

    I really enjoyed listening and watching this segment of Moyers, which is a show I watch every week, several times. Ms Alexander is a very intelligent and caring person. Everything she said is true. Prison is a punishment but after the period of incarceration is over is when the REAL punishment begins.

    I have a family member who went to prison years ago, spent about 7 months in there for a Class E felony charge (Class E being the very minimum of all the classes of felonies), but he had nothing but trouble in trying to get his life back together after coming out—and now, even 30 years later—his incarceration for the very lowest of the felony classes, Class E being just one step above a misdemeanor class, he is still being punished for that ONE time mistake, being shut out of so many opportunities as he tries even YEARS later to do the best he can to survive because of that ONE mistake.

    It’s not fair to keep punishing people the rest of their lives for one past mistake. Every where he applies for anything: jobs, housing, etc., he meets opposition when he tells the truth about his past prison time, which always ended with a “thumbs down” to him. He finally began to lie about his past incarceration on applications, hoping his applications wouldn’t be checked for his past incarceration, and only then did he begin to have a chance at being accepted for whatever he applied for. Only when his past was not thoroughly checked did he ever get a break: and FORGET applying for a job, for example, where fingerprinting is required. He never went to jail after that one mistake (kiting checks), but his life after that one time has been one of luck or blessing whenever he was accepted for whatever he applied for.

    After 10 years, bankruptcy is forgiven and records of it no longer held against the person. After 7 years (supposedly) bad credit that has been reported to our three “esteemed” and “perfect” credit bureaus is supposedly expunged, but never is a one time mistake forgiven or expunged. It’s a life time black eye on a person and it’s just not fair. For the prison system to become privatized will only add to the woes of society. The jails will become a grave yard. People will be placed there for lifetime and all in the name of GREED and the “almighty” dollar.

  • Nancy A. Leys

    Michelle Alexander is eloquent and inspiring. Susan is amazing! Thank you for an excellent presentation!! I understand that the Netherlands is tearing down prisons, while we are building more. I am 80 years old and not in the best of health. I am not very active in social issues other than signing petitions…but continue to worry about the low-road our “democracy” has taken.

  • Edward Moriarty

    There should be a way to get Michelle Alexander to spend some time with Michelle Obama. I think those two ladies, motivated by moral imperatives, could be transformational for our nation.
    With massive feminine insistence for righteousness, the machismo that has been running our society into the ground would lose it’s hold on our national priorities. Privilege could become the right of all beings, rather than reserved for the rich and powerful. Feminine logic is more humane than the macho need to dominate society we are so accustomed to.

  • Anonymous

    Edward Moriarty has a good idea. Michelle Alexander has a really good idea which is joining forces in America to end all of this immorality of mistreating and treating unfairly our fellow humans in this country (and outside, for that matter, also)!!

    Let’s band together and object to “looking the other way” and speak up when wrongdoing occurs. Might, wealth and power do not make right.

    All we need for evil to triumph is good people to do nothing. Edmund Burke

  • Edward Moriarty

    90% do not need incarceration. Community monitoring, job training and educational opportunities would be much more productive for society, but these powers that be who insist that private enterprise should make a profit off of prisons, hospitals, psychiatric facilities-actually PROFIT FROM EVERYTHING is their goal-are heartless power hungry individuals and corporations.

  • Edward Moriarty

    Kind of like that Florida congressman who just left rehab to return to the halls of congress. Good enough for him……it should be good enough for everyone.

  • fedupwithpoliticians

    I am with you. But, don’t be naïve. The political landscape also changed in 1980 as reported by Pierson & Hacker on Bill’s site. That change is what has pit the 1%, media, think tanks, and corporations against the public starting in 1980. It is not going to be easy to move that. Find the Lewis F Powell memorandum here.

    If you go to Peter Dreier’s, “Saving Democracy is Up to Citizen Activists”, you will find the connection between Wall Street and the religious right. —“For the last 30 years Wall Street and big business have basically put, invested, a lot of money in the right wing, in the far right, in the Tea
    Party, in the religious right.

    The macho part that you refer to is “passive aggressive” and it is irrational and near impossible to reason with. It will take some kind of raw political power to get their attention.

  • David Hovgaard

    There is a lot of injustice in this country and most of it has been caused by a corporate control of our government. Corporations don’t care about communities or people all they care about is profits. So when the opportunity to import millions of workers into this country as a virtual save labor force presented itself in the form of NAFTA’s open border provisions they took it.

    And the reason we have such a hard time fixing it is that both the left and the right are lying about this problem. The right likes to demonize illegal immigrants and while there are a lot of criminals coming across that border most of the people are just trying to escape Mexico.

    The left likes to say that twelve million illegal immigrants don’t have an effect on legal workers but of course they do. Just try to get a job as a carpenter or a meat cutter or if you are a college student try and get a job doing yard work. Those jobs are gone not because Americans don’t want to do them but because employers can hire three illegals for the price of one legal worker so they go illegal and the government looks the other way.

    If we want to solve this problem we need to control the border not just because people are crossing it. But because drugs come north on the backs of human mules and money goes south. By closing that border we make it harder for the drug cartels and better for the border communities.

  • fedupwithpoliticians

    Your first sentence is right on. The fact from the book Shock Doctrine is that Lech Walensa and Nelson Mandela won democracy for their people but made no economic gains. In that same time, American democracy has been degraded with the shared prosperity (tax code) after WWII being slowly and insidiously dismantled. The CBO reports that 95% of the gains, from spending $3 trillion in tax dollars since 2011 has gone to the 1%. Even Pat Robertson admits, “The elites are running the country.” Ask him who they are. Thomas Jefferson warned us that Pastors “abet the abuses of the despots for protection of their own abuses” and the “irresponsible judiciary” would be the “germ of destruction” of our democracy. In those times democracy can be a hollowed out illusion.

  • Terry Cooper

    I certainly enjoyed watching this. Michelle Alexander is a very bright, and compassionate lady. She and people like her are the up and coming new leaders for social justice.

  • stupidamerkin
  • Bob Banta

    It is remarkable to compare the punishments meted out to the women on this show to what the perpetrators of financial crimes get. Most recently two former top executives at Diamond Foods got off with $125,000 fines to settle their financial fraud case, but no admission of guilt and most certainly no jail time or felony record. How do these guys get off this easily while someone who commits petty drug distribution gets 4 years and a permanent felony record? And what about those folks on Wall Street who bundled crappy mortgages into complicated bonds, got them rated triple-A, then bet against those very same bonds? While I agree sentencing reform is sorely needed for drug related crimes, I would welcome significant mandatory sentences for financial fraud that has proved to be orders of magnitude more damaging to the country.

  • BloggerRadio

    Wow. I don’t think that I had ever seen Michelle Alexander speak before coming across this Moyers interview. She is amazing. I am inspired by how clearly that she connects the dots. Again, just wow. Michelle Alexander is my idea of a real American patriot.