READ THE TRANSCRIPT

BILL MOYERS: And now to the people who refuse to let democracy work. The people who hate government so much they’ve shut it down. Unable to abide by the results of democracy when they don’t win, they turned on it.

Republicans have now lost three successive elections to control the Senate and they’ve lost the last two presidential elections. Nonetheless, they fought tooth and nail to kill President Obama’s health care initiative. They lost that fight, but with the corporate wing of Democrats, they managed to bend it toward private interests.

So we should be clear on this, Obamacare, as it’s known, is deeply flawed. Big subsidies to the health insurance industry. A bonanza for lobbyists. No public option. And as The New York Times reported this week, “Millions of Poor Are Left Uncovered by Health Law.” Largely because states controlled by Republicans refuse to expand Medicaid.

As far as our bought and paid for legislative process goes, Obama’s initiative made it through the sausage factory. Yet even after both the House and Senate approved it, the president signed it, and the Supreme Court upheld it, the Republicans keep insisting on calling the law a “bill,” thumbing their noses and refusing to accept that it is enacted legislation.

Now they’re fighting to prevent it from being implemented. Here was their order of the day on Thursday from the popular right wing blog RedState.com:

“Congressmen, this is about shutting down Obamacare. Democrats keep talking about our refusal to compromise. They don’t realize our compromise is defunding Obamacare. We actually want to repeal it. This is it. Our endgame is to leave the whole thing shut down until the President defunds Obamacare. And if he does not defund Obamacare, we leave the whole thing shut down.”

Once upon a time when I was a young man working on Capitol Hill, it was commonplace that when a bill became law, everybody was unhappy with it. But you didn’t bring down the government just because it wasn’t perfect. You argue and fight and vote and then, due process having been at least raggedly served, on to the next fight.

That was a long time ago. Long before the Tea Party minority, armed with huge sums of secret money from rich donors, sucked the last bit of soul from the Grand Old Party of Abraham Lincoln. They became delusional. Then rabid. Like this:

SENATOR STEVE KING: If Obamacare is ever implemented and enforced, we will never recover from it. It is an unconstitutional takings of God-given American liberty.

BILL MOYERS: That’s false, of course. Just like those right-wing talking points that keep grinding through the propaganda mills of Fox News:

AINSLEY EARHARDT on Fox and Friends: Thanks to Obamacare, doctors will be forced to ask patients about their sex life, even if it has nothing to do with the medical treatment that they are seeking at the time.

BILL MOYERS: Not true.

MICHELLE MALKIN on Fox and Friends: That healthcare plan puts a discount on the lives of elderly people and would result in the redistribution of health away from the elderly and the infirm to other special favored interests and patients.

BILL MOYERS: Again, not true. Nor is this, from the multi-millionaire fabulist Rush Limbaugh:

RUSH LIMBAUGH from the Rush Limbaugh Show: What we now have is the biggest tax increase in the history of the world. Obamacare is just a massive tax increase, that all it is.

BILL MOYERS: That’s just a tiny sample of the lies and misinformation perpetrated by the right with the song and dance compliance of its richly paid mouthpieces. Sarah Palin set the bar for truth at about ankle height with those fictitious “death panels” that she still insists will decide our rendezvous with the Grim Reaper.

SARAH PALIN on Cashin' In: Of course there are death panels in there, but the important thing to remember is that’s just one aspect of this atrocious, unaffordable, cumbersome, burdensome, evil policy of Obama’s and that is Obamacare.

BILL MOYERS: Despite what they say, Obamacare is only one of their targets. Before they will allow the government to reopen, they demand employers be enabled to deny birth control coverage to female employees. They demand Obama cave on the Keystone pipeline. They demand the watchdogs over corporate pollution be muzzled, and the big, bad regulators of Wall Street sent home. Their ransom list goes on and on. The debt ceiling is next. They would have the government default on its obligations and responsibilities.

When the president refused to buckle to their extortion, they threw their tantrum. Like the die-hards of the racist South a century and a half ago, who would destroy the Union before giving up their slaves, so would these people burn the place down, sink the ship of state, and sow economic chaos to get their way. This says it all, they even shuttered the Statue of Liberty.

Watching all this from London, the noted commentator Martin Wolf, of the capitalist friendly Financial Times, says “America flirts with self-destruction.”

This man is the biggest flirt of all, Newt Gingrich. It was Newt Gingrich who twenty years ago spearheaded the right-wing’s virulent crusade against the norms of democratic government. As Speaker of the House he twice brought about shutdowns of the federal government once, believe it or not, because he felt snubbed after riding on Air Force One with President Clinton and had to leave by the backdoor.

It was also Newt Gingrich, speaker Gingrich, who was caught lying to congressional investigators looking into charges of his ethical wrongdoing. His colleagues voted overwhelmingly, 395 to 28, to reprimand him. Pressure from his own party then prompted him to resign.

Yet even after his flame out, even after his recent bizarre race for the presidency bankrolled with money from admiring oligarchs, even after new allegations about his secret fundraising for right-wing candidates, Gingrich remains the darling of a fawning amnesic media.

NEWT GINGRICH on Crossfire: I’m Newt Gingrich on the right.

BILL MOYERS: On CNN.com the other day he issued a call to arms to his fellow bomb-throwers, “…don’t cave on shutdown.”

At least let’s name this for what it is, sabotage of the democratic process. Secession by another means. And let’s be clear about where such reckless ambition leads. As surely as night must follow day, the alternative to democracy is worse.

Bill Moyers Essay: On the Sabotage of Democracy

October 4, 2013

This week’s government shutdown has consequences for all of us, costing an estimated $300 million each day that the government is closed for business. Many Americans have voiced their frustrations with the fallout from the shutdown on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter using the hash tag #DearCongress. Here, Bill Moyers shares his own thoughts on the shutdown, and the resulting sabotage of democracy.

“When the president refused to buckle to this extortion, they threw their tantrum,” Bill says. “Like the die-hards of the racist South a century and a half ago, who would destroy the union before giving up their slaves, so would these people burn down the place, sink the ship.” He goes on to tell us where the “reckless ambition” of the Republicans could lead us.

Producer: Gail Ablow. Associate Producer: Robert Booth. Editor: Sikay Tang.

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  • PeoplesGovmt

    Sadly, it seems somewhat obvious as well, that this lunatic right fringe sees an upside in one of the more significant downsides of the shutdown. As the economy is slowly undermined by the erosion of its public spending, they hope to later be able to claim that the Democrats (both Legislative and Executive) have been bad for the economy. They think they are so brilliant, but we SEE them.

  • strider367

    Remember this is big business again flexing their muscles. To tell us serfs its their way or the highway. They’re just using their well paid minions to do this. Its just amazing they don’t care how they look when they do these things. For the simple reason they pay no penalty when they go for reelection. Since the republicans smart fully took over a majority of state houses. Which have created congressional districts were as they can never lose their seats. This has to be changed…

  • PeoplesGovmt

    Well interesting touch point. I firmly believe that the root of MOST of our political problems is the gerrymandering of voting districts, creating ever more homogenized voter blocks, leading to more and more extreme political candidates. This happens on the Left as well as the Right. Trouble is, when in power, why change it?
    On a 2nd note, I try to convince people that blaming corporations is not meaningful. They do no wrong. They should not be expected to have morality, and you can’t be blamed for doing wrong if it is impossible to experience morality. The anger and energy should be directed at government to overlay upon them some level of artificial(to business) morality that is satisfactory to people.

  • strider367

    Corporations do no wrong? On the top of the republican agenda is to get rid of the EPA. Why? Because its interfering with their bottom line. I don’t know how old you are but I believe you don’t know why the EPA was created in the first place. Corporate pollution became a major health issue in this country. Rivers, lakes, streams and the air we breath was so polluted millions of people were getting sick everyday. Health care started its major costs climbs then. Now because of the EPA we all have a better place to live. So who wants to go back to the old days?

    As far as this gerrymandering which was created by the voting rights act. It was commandeered by the republicans. Since they will always be the minority party in this country. They have locked themselves in no matter what the majority of hard working Americans need or want. I hate to use this analogy. Just like the Nazi’s did in 1933. They too were the minority party who brought their country to destruction. If you forget the past, then you’ll only repeat the same mistakes in the future…

  • Anonymous

    Moyers make several quotes from various non elected conservatives as being “not true” “lies” about ACA..
    We have ELECTED people on the liberal side telling us some real whoppers. “If you like your doctor you can keep him period, if you like your healthcare insurance you can keep it point.. It was stated that it would reduce the annual premium by $2500..The total cost over 10 yrs was about 900 billion dollars.. The CBO resently stated its cost was like 2.7 TRILLION dollars..These statement were made by our elected & “trusted” officals. not some non elect partisan media person. The major problems with the ACA has been brought out by the labor leaders of the nation as it made part time employees out of it members & takes away expensive health care benefits they had bargained for. As to the debt ceiling & Obama’s statement about not negotiating I am reminded of the fact that only time we have been able to reduce signifcant amount of spending reduction was over the debt ceiling negotiations ..Or should we continue to spend us into financial rein.. Truly it is financial child abuse… Of course our next generations do not vote today so should that make it OK? As to the shuting down of the govt. The Republicans have done it twice now in my lifetime. Tip O’Neil did I believe it was 4-5 times during Carter admin with a Dem controlled congress again in Reagan admin he lead 5-6 shutdowns.. I do not recall the name calling & hollering then..Kind of a double standard I’d say . We cannot continue to run up more debt be it a Republican or Democrat admin or congress. Any increase in interest rated back to a “normal level” will make it a huge problem paying the interest on our debt. The govt has more revenue than ever this year.. we than should be able to spend within our means.

  • barb shillinger

    Yeah, the Koch Brothers strike again. One half of all Tea Party members are millionaires, too.

  • barb shillinger

    I certainly agree with you about gerrymandering. We need to end this stupid and unfair way of dividing states into districts.

  • barb shillinger

    I heard Mr. Moyers give this talk tonight on tv. Where is the rest of it?

  • Anonymous

    This shutdown clearly demonstrates the influence of special interests that control our country. Without campaign finance reform and repealing Citizens United, our government can never function as a democracy.
    When politicians talk about representing the American people, they are not talking about 99% of us but only the 1% that finances their elections!

  • PeoplesGovmt

    Strider, I think you are misunderstanding what I mean. Corporations are not human. As such they have no sense of right or wrong. Their ONLY function is to succeed, and it does not matter how. Literally there is nothing wrong it can do to achieve that goal.

    It is, in my opinion, a waste of political energy to yell at them insisting that they act morally. Instead, that energy should be directed to government to legislate our morality onto the amoral corporate world. Calling them amoral is not a judgement. Just an observation. It isn’t their responsibility to get a moral compass (something usually anathema to their whole purpose). It’s our responsibility to make them comply with our moral norms – through legislation.

  • Todd Heft

    Thanks, Bill. You’re one of the few authentic voices remaining in journalism.

  • Terry Brawley

    Barb, I fully agree re TP’s and the Koch Bros being the problem. Where did you get the idea that 1/2 of the Tea Party members are millionaires? That would be a LOT of millionaires, and the TP members I see are mainly on Medicaid and Social Security.

  • Shane

    It seems to me the only ones willing to compromise are the Republicans. Obama and Reid have said over and over, that they will not negotiate. Even Clinton in 95-96 negotiated. He also didn’t go out of his way to close things like the WWII memorial and of all things, the Grand Canyon. Gimme a break with this group of Marxists!

  • Shane

    More lies and Marxism from the liberal media!

  • Steve Woodward

    The Affordable Care Act was passed by the House and Senate and found constitutional by the highest court in the land. Are these the Marxists to whom you’re referring?

  • skjelv

    Republicans = Republican’ts :(

  • Anonymous

    But that is a large part of what this is about. A substantial part of the GOP in the old South want to reverse the outcome of the Civil War.

    Not that they want to re-instate slavery … at least not formally, but for the rest: the effective subjugation of African-Americans, states’ rights over federal rights, untrammeled trading conditions for the big magnates and tied rents for everyone else, you name it and it’s on their agenda.

    This is a fight about the very essence of what America means for Americans.

  • Anonymous

    I agree they would hold the first two against him but I don’t think even the right could make the case that he has not paid his dues!

  • Victoria Marton

    The “American Spring”.

  • Betty Jane Campbell

    Help us oh God to speak the truth even when we stand alone. Give us strength and courage to stand for justice for all your children. Please bless this land from shore to shore, be in our hearts and minds. Forgive our sins teach us to pray, we worship you oh God. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebW64UDALEg. Thank you for speaking, Bill. I hope and pray that people will listen. We all can do better.

  • Anonymous

    I think their may come a time when the President should declare a state of Emergency, arrest those blocking progress, and release emergency funds to do what is needed. The Republifascists should not be allowed to get away with this. This has to be stopped by any means necessary.

  • Anonymous

    This is not a democracy, but a democrazy, a plutocracy, a government by the rich for the rich and screw everyone else. This shouldn’t be allowed to last.

  • Anonymous

    I have no respect for this country anymore, it is a government founded on genocide of the Native Americans, and slavery, how could it come to any good.

  • Anonymous

    I would take issue with most of your points, but there is one, which I keep hearing from the tea party defenders, that I think bears analysis: “I am reminded of the fact that only time we have been able to reduce signifcant amount of spending reduction was over the debt ceiling negotiations .” I don’t think that is true, but to the extent it is, there is a reason for that– Congress lacks the courage to “take away” money from almost any program. This is not a serious problem for most democrats, b/c we support most gov’t spending; but for the GOP, who constantly rail against gov’t spending, and are always SAYING they want to reduce it, when it comes time to name the programs they want to cut, most lack the courage to face their constituents and do it. So, like spineless cowards, they prefer to let the system implode with things like the gov’t shutdown, the debt ceiling and the sequester. They rejected all the hard work done by both bi-partisan committees (“gangs”) that have made recommendations for cutting spending. They need to have the courage of their convictions, but I’m not holding my breath.

  • Anonymous

    Because thoughtful discourse is anathema to them. Their positions won’t hold up when held up to light (fact-checking) and they know that, so they avoid the risk.

  • PeoplesGovmt

    David, I get what you are saying, but a corporation has no soul, no conscience. We invite conflict of interest when we want them to. We should accept their non-malicious amoral nature, as it frees us up to address the primary mechanism we have available to get them to abide by our morality – regulation and law.
    And btw, you two are making invalid assumptions about me. I am not a business-school person. And I have been around the block a few times.
    No offense taken. Just don’t assume. Ask. Regards :-) .

  • James King

    And if a state National Guard refused to obey the orders of the President and stand with a defiant governor, we could easily see Civil War II.

  • http://wonderwheels.blogspot.com/ Gregory Wonderwheel

    Wonderfull comments and right on target as usual: calling out the sabotage of democracy by people who hate democracy when they can’t manipulate it to their own advantage.

  • http://wonderwheels.blogspot.com/ Gregory Wonderwheel

    While the Tea Partiers hate Obama for all the wrong reasons, that doesn’t mean we should give Obama a free pass. As Moyers says at the beginning of his comments, the corporate wing of the Democratic Party made sure we did not get single payor health care and it must be added that Obama was a participant and leader of that corporate wing of the Democrats giving windfall profits to the health insurance corporations and big pharma.

  • strider367

    In 1886 Supreme Court decision granting corporations the same rights as living persons under the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution. (A) So according to the law they are people.
    (B) Corporations are run by people. Unless their living in a bubble they do have responsabilities to the public. Also people have been yelling at corps for a very long time that’s the only way they listen…

  • http://wonderwheels.blogspot.com/ Gregory Wonderwheel

    LOL! complaining about quotes by Moyers and then not a single atribution of any quotes supposedly by “liberal” elected officials. Everything stated here is just more lies. There is no basis for the claim that anyone with current health insurance will have to give up their insurance and thus give up their doctor. The Affordable Care Act will not force anyone to change doctors.

  • http://wonderwheels.blogspot.com/ Gregory Wonderwheel

    So it sounds like the President should use the claim that Republicans are fascists as justification to begin a reign of Democrat fascism. How does that make any sense? Well, it doesn’t.

  • http://wonderwheels.blogspot.com/ Gregory Wonderwheel

    Blaming corporations is just a shorthand way of blaiming the Corporate Lords of our corporate feudalism who use corporations to amass their great wealth and power. When America broke free of England and the system of feudalism based on landed nobility, we substituted a system of feudalism based on corporate estates. This is the basis of our American Brand of Fascism.

  • Jim Ek

    I don’t think Bill Moyer’s has/got it right. For my interpretation it is the fault of the voters. Folks don’t realize the importance of taking the vote seriously and do necessary research into the candidates and what they truly represent. Instead America comes across as a bunch of Sheeple who don’t take the time to do anything but watch paid political announcements designed to produce knee jerk results.

    We have the most incredible communications structure ever. But still it is not being used effectively. We blame the politicians … yet it is we who vote to put them in or keep them in office. My guess is 98% of the population doesn’t even attempt to communicate with legislators regarding issues that are important to them. Then we have the nerve to go boo-hoo when crap like this shut down goes on.

    We the voters are to blame not the politicians.

  • http://wonderwheels.blogspot.com/ Gregory Wonderwheel

    “Their ONLY function is to succeed, and it does not matter how. Literally there is nothing wrong it can do to achieve that goal.”

    That is exactly the reason we should yell at corporations, not the reason to keep silent. “To succeed” means to make as much profit as possible and therefore the people in charge say there is nothing they can do wrong in the pursuit of profit since their only goal is profit. To them destroying the earth, air and water is not wrong if profits can be made. Well, that is wrong and they are delusional.

  • http://wonderwheels.blogspot.com/ Gregory Wonderwheel

    FYI, it is only a fiction and a legend that the 1886 case of Santa Clara
    County v. Southern Pacific Railroad (118 U.S. 394) established corporate personhood. It was actually Justice Stephan J. Field who created the legend of the 1886 case by misrepresenting it his own opinion two years later in the 1888 case of Pembina Consolidated Silver
    Mining and Milling Company v. Pennsylvania (1888) 125 U.S. 181. This 1888 Pembina case is the actual case that established for the first time the doctrine of corporate personhood and Field wrote his opinion by lying that the question had already been settled in the 1886 Santa Clara case WHEN IT ACTUALLY WAS NOT IN THAT OPINION by Justice Harlan.

  • Anonymous

    Obama has taken more direct racism and abuse then any other before, Demorats have been too weak in the face of what is direct racism, overt sexism and now, abuse of power. These Republicans are fascists, pure and simple. And they have brought disgrace and dishonor to what was a good country.

  • Anonymous

    Gerrymandered districting has a lot to do with the voter problem. The congressmen of such districts are guaranteed to be reelected. They have no fear of retribution.

  • Anonymous

    On the money.

  • strider367

    In reality this has been the basis on all their legal arguments to this day. As long as corporations have this distinction they will continue to act with impunity.

    So you know corporations were not finite before this opinion, which is law. Before this, a corporation was created for the public good. Like building a bridge, road etc. Once the goal of the corporation completed its task. The corporation would shut down. This opinion created permanent corporate entries. Most good for the country others not so good…

  • Anonymous

    CColvin, while I would and do defend your right to speak you mind, when I read your comment my thought was; sir, if you have no respect for this country perhaps you should leave it. We must work together to fix what is broken. Freedom requires us to work for the common good. Mr. Moyer’s is so very right when he said that shutting down the government because the tea party didn’t get their way is analogous to the slave owners of a century and a half ago who would rather see the union dissolved than give up their slaves. Those slave owners were WRONG then and the tea party is WRONG now! We must bring our democracy back on track. We must not give in nor give up. The enemy within is ruthless and wealthy but so were the slave owners. What is right and just will always win out in the end but it will never happen if we just throw up our arms and say “I have no respect for this country anymore.”

  • Micca

    “We The People” are not being represented by the people who’s only job is to represent “We The People”. Who is it that is representing the people nowadays. Not the republican party.

  • skinny dipper

    America needs some form of proportional representation such as the Single Transferable Vote for voters to elect the members of the House of Representatives so that voters can have a diversity of opinions reflected. The Senators should be elected by a rank ballot (1, 2, 3, and so on). I would increase the size of both the House of Representatives and Senate so that an oligarchy cannot prevail. America needs democracy.

  • Brenda Duffey

    I am disturbed at your continual use of the race card and biased reporting that refuses to accept that there could be some solution to this if both sides stopped pointing fingers and perhaps agreed to mediation. That’s what unions and management sometimes do.

  • skinny dipper

    It would be nice if the members of the House of Representatives were elected by some form of proportional representation for each state. The rank-ballot Single Transferable Vote could be used to elect the Representatives.

  • strider367

    The problem with these republican’s there is no mediation with them. There goal is plain and simple. They want to kill the affordable care act. They will accept nothing else. So how do you mediate with a brick wall?

  • Anonymous

    Also they can not abide that there is an African American in THEIR White House. In 2008, McConnell said it when he said their number one priority is to make Obama a one term president. They blocked every piece of legistation and caused interminable delays in getting the president’s staff, cabinet and appointees approved. When all that failed and it failed miserably, they moved to their fall back plan…shut down the government. Ugh!

  • strider367

    ” I read your comment my thought was; sir, if you have no respect for this country perhaps you should leave it.”

    These kinds of comments have always disturb me. In a free society we need to respect everyone’s opinion no matter how hurtful it is. Otherwise were not really free. The rest of what you said is right on the money though…

  • Anonymous

    Amen…

  • strider367

    Well were not really a democracy in its truest sense. We are a republic. Unfortunately our elected official have long forgotten who they actually work for…

  • Anonymous

    Strider367 Thank you. You are very right. I had no right to make a statement telling CColvin if he didn’t respect this country perhaps he should leave it. I apologize and will apologize to CColvin. I did say that I defend his right to make his statement…I should have left it there.

    Thanks for your feedback. We all must work together and we are all entitled to our views. Thank God/Universe that we still have the freedom of speech however, we and that includes me should use it with truth and without anger.

  • Anonymous

    Please accept my apologies for my unkind statement of “if you have no respect for this country perhaps you should leave it.” You have every right to voice your opinion and your views and no one should tell you to leave the country that you obviously love.

    Again, please accept my apologies. Let’s work together to fix what we each perceive as the issues facing our great country.

  • Anonymous

    I was intentionally not trying to embarrass a member of congress by name. The quotes have been ungentlemently to the point the Senator Reid called for civility on the floor of the senate after he had apologized to a fellow republican senator.. I found that interesting to say the lease. The ACA does not control the doctors.. mine is going to retire because of the law.. Many employers are dropping coverage for their folks & their present doctors may no take their new coverage..Thank you for your comments.

  • strider367

    Wow this is a scary comment. Should we become a banana republic as well. You seem to have missed a few history lessons…

  • Anonymous

    Thank you for your comments. I recall the shutdowns under Carter & Reagan.. Those under Reagan were when Tip O’Neil & he disagreed over spending cuts. Tip knew with the power of the purse he could fight Reagan.. The two gentlemen went at it but in the end they were gentlemen & were respectful of each other. Chris Matthews has a new book about Tip O”Neil relating some touching moments as well as difficulties..He tell of Tip respect for Reagan even in the heat of battle. That respect was returned by Reagan. They spent many evenings together according to Matthews who worked for Tip..Shortly after Reagan had been shot & was lying the hospital Tip went to see him.. Tip kneeled by his bed & the 2 gentlemen said the 23 psalm together..At the end of the visit Tip kissed Reagan on his forehead..Now that my liberal & conservative friends is what gentlemen statesmen do. Not all this hollering; name calling etc. I agree the congress is gutless. The partisan gang of six had an agreement.. I remember it well. Obama came & raised the revenue figure to spoiled the deal.. Boehner & he had a grand bargain & again Obama changed the revenue at the last minute. Boehner has been frustrated dealing with the pres..We sure could use Tip & Reagan again. The Bowals-Simpson gang had some great points but I sorry to say that Obama did not endorse. it. Our creditors will tell us when we are broke & that could come sooner than many think. I like you are not holding my breath for a meaningful agreement. I do remember times when govt worked.. Humphrey & Dirkson could deal.as well.. They above all respected each other & could treat each other like gentlemen after the disagreements I blame the media for much of our problem.. Being a gentleman today seems to be a sign of weakness..Thank you

  • Kathi

    Paula, I am with you 100% it just struck me that the ONLY thing Brenda got out of the entire piece was that one word. The R’s LOVE to twist things around and turn it back on us. Used to be called Doublespeak…..still is.

  • Russell Scott Day

    The lies as a hill are great. The lobbying power has increased as journalists have fought over truth and it has been incredibly difficult to believe that lies with such power have been said without punishments. When I lied like that I got hurt for it, and stopped lying. Some set of people laugh and go on lying bigger and better.

  • Anonymous

    Obama tried to negotiate with republicans for his whole presidency but they NEVER wanted to negotiate. Why are they turning things around and playing the victim when they clearly are not? No negotiating.

  • Anonymous

    C’mon,lets share the blame. How does that go? Hurt me once shame on you ,hurt me twice…I’ll never get fooled again?

  • James King

    Well, to be fair, they *are* representing their gerrymandered district quite well. Call it a gerrymandate. But let’s be clear that it is gerrymandering that has made this whole polarizing situation possible.

  • Anonymous

    in 2009 Boehner & Obama had come up with an agreement and was supposed to be “historic” Boehner told dems. he went as far as he could on compromising-Obama then said fine, let’s sign but when they met, Obama wanted more & the gop had already said they had given in to much of obama’s demands- Obama walked out and then started disregarding the house.

  • Anonymous

    And obama has not bothered with the house in 4 years so what are you talking about the Negotiating? Obama does NOT negotiate or know how

  • catonine

    The time has passed, this is no longer a negotiating point and holding the nation hostage just to save face is abominably stupid.

  • One Unique Woman

    well said indeed thanks you :)

  • One Unique Woman

    and you do not think we are on tht path already? to a second civil war, look around you at the climate of the USA it is earmarked and ripe for exactly that.

  • catonine

    Those voters who are NOT affected by the chipping away of the Voting Rights Act. Do you see what we are drifting toward?

  • Anonymous

    yes, but when this “law” was conferred upon by the supreme court it was a different law. This version has been changed, omitted, deleted & delayed- it is NOT the same act so how do you know it is still constitutional? That could be an argument for the lawyers but this certainly is NOT the same “act” or “bill” or “law”

  • Donald R Raab

    He should start with the Republican/teabag Rasputin; Grover Norquist

  • Nick

    No, this is not big business flexing their muscles. Big business has, in fact, told their bought Congressional lackeys—on both sides—to shut down the shutdown.

    Big business does big business with the government and is losing money with government shut down. Big business also relies on the full faith and credit of the US government to back the value of the dollar. No faith and credit, no dollar. No dollar, no business. Got it?

  • Questions

    Unfortunately, this is exactly what the Teabaggers have planned for and indeed want. Why do you think they have been stockpiling weapons, amo, canned goods, etc. They have been preparing for an “economic collapse” of their own making and no doubt want a state of emergency enacted to reclaim “their” republic.

  • strider367

    Mr. Got it,
    Its big business who doesn’t want the affordable care act to go into affect. Because these same big businesses who have taken away the social contract. (health care) From most of their employee’s over the last 10-15 years. This law will give it back to them in part and they don’t like that. Got it?

  • Jim Rome

    Welcome to Hollywood.

  • PeoplesGovmt

    I don’t say keep silent about it. In fact I say just the opposite. I am, however, saying our yelling should be directed at government, local and federal, to enforce our will, our wish for healthy environments living wages etc.
    Yes corporations are run by people. But in becoming the aggregate “stock holder”, that humanity greatly disappears. Not a sin, it just is.

  • Jim Osborne

    Sooner or later we must all consider the prospects of real insanity within our government. That is, we have Congress people who literally do not understand the issues facing America today. Such mentality literally scares the hell out of me.

  • Anonymous

    All of you ‘bagger’ trolls can go back under your bridges now. You have amused us all with your myopic view of race and politics and your complete misunderstanding of the ‘works’ of how a bill becomes a law, etc., etc. It was fun, but now it’s over. After a while the act goes a bit stale, in that whatever fun there was in it is ground down through sheer repetition. I get this uncomfortable feeling of deja vu, whenever any of you spout off, showing off the fact that you know nothing that hasn’t been drilled into your thick skulls by Limbaugh, O’Reilly, Hannity, Murdoch and Co. It was fun while it lasted but it’s over. After a while even Gen. Lee knew when to quit. Please follow his example.

  • Anonymous

    too late now to fight the EVIL that is Big Money. they Bought the Repubilcan and Democratic party/ one party with two snarling faces.

    now the mad dogs of the Crazies are biting at our Democracy.

    Can we stop these Crazies? that is what time will tell.

  • Anonymous

    ^^^ Here is a perfect example of the purposely misinformed who has channeled that misinformation they have consumed into anger.

    You are right to be angry with your government. However, since nothing in your rant is accurate, it is clear you are angry at the wrong members of your government and for all the wrong reason.

  • Anonymous

    I have just heard your most moving interview with Mr. Berry – most thought-provoking.

    And then came your own remarks on the “Sabotage of Democracy.” I have observed for some time now that Mr. Obama’s criticisms of Republicans apply equally and even more directly to himself and the Democrats. Yours even moreso. One small example: you say that the ACA is now the law of the land and so all should just accept it. Well, the Second Amendment has been the law of the land for much longer but that does not stop Democrats from doing all they can to limit or restrict it in every way possible. Etc., etc., etc.

    In between NPR and PBS I also listen to conservative talk radio. So far, I have heard nothing any more bigoted or intemperate from the likes of Rush Limbaugh than I heard from you today. In fact, you are, if anything, the liberal Rush Limbaugh. I had hoped that at some point we might have a meeting of minds, but it appears highly doubtful that it will come from you.

    Alas.

  • http://wonderwheels.blogspot.com/ Gregory Wonderwheel

    LOL! Still no name, so the rest of us have to just “trust your word” about this? Sorry, I’m not buying it. If it was stated on the floor of congress there is no legitimate reason not to name the speaker so that we can fact check your allegations.
    Also, any doctor who “quits” because someone gets health insurance under the new law is violating the oath of medicine. And there is no reason for an employer to drop or change their current health coverage because of the ACT unless they think they can get more profits by forcing the federal government to pay more of the costs. This is the fault of the profit-hungary employers, not the fault of the ACA.

  • http://wonderwheels.blogspot.com/ Gregory Wonderwheel

    The arguments over the 2nd Amendment are not about whether it should be a law, or whether it should be funded as a law, but over what the correct interpretation of the law means. That is a different category of debate than the Tea Party saying the ACA should be “defunded” by holding the entire federal budget hostage. No Democrats are saying the federal government should be closed because they don’t agree with the Supreme Court’s view of the constitutionality of the Second Amendment, but that is exactly what the Tea Party Repubicans are saying when they have closed down the federal budget becasue they don’t like the Supreme Court’s ruling that the interpretation of the ACA is Constitutional.

  • http://wonderwheels.blogspot.com/ Gregory Wonderwheel

    Rep. Alan Grayson says his co-Congressionals are literally drunk on the job, which is why they look and sound crazy. http://www.salon.com/2013/10/01/grayson_blames_shutdown_on_gop_literally_drinking_on_the_job/?source=newsletter

  • http://wonderwheels.blogspot.com/ Gregory Wonderwheel

    Probably a proud member of the “Tea Party” who doesn’t know the Tea Party was created by the Tobacco Industry, the Koch Brothers and their cornies.

    Those who think the ACA is somehow and “affront to decency” are reading the Conservtive Bible: http://www.addictinginfo.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/republican-jesus.jpg

  • Anonymous

    Mr. Wonderwheel:
    You are straining on a technicality and missing the point.

    The point is that Mr. Moyers and the Democrats in general have proven to be just as stubborn and arbitrary – if not moreso – than the Tea Party Republicans. Rock-headed intransigence on either side is dangerous to the democratic process, and at this point I think an objective observer would have to admit that the Democrats have taken the prize for intransigence.

  • Anonymous

    There is a legitimate reason for not mentioning their names. It don’t want to add to discourse.. Just the fact the Reid called for civility & had apologized to Sen Cruz for Reid’s comments is enough. We have several Doctors serving in congress..My Doc & the congressman have no need to be concerned about any violation of any “oath of medicine” Have a good day.

  • http://wonderwheels.blogspot.com/ Gregory Wonderwheel

    It is inherent in the current socially sanctioned structure and functioning of the for-profit corporation that the corporation filters out the human and humanity factor in the interest of making profit as the primary goal of the corporation. We need to be yelling at the corporations AND at each other to change the laws under which corporations are made legitimate so that profit can no longer be the main goal of a corporation.

  • Anonymous

    Bravo! Bill Moyers, you are one of the few truth-tellers left, and you tell the truth with a quiet dignity.As soon as the shutdown is over and my husband (one of the furloughed) returns to work, I am sending a check to my local PBS station in support of your program. Thank you.

  • http://wonderwheels.blogspot.com/ Gregory Wonderwheel

    Agree, except that I like donkeys and don’t think that the donkeys should be insulted by comparing them to the beltway inhabitants.

  • Troll Killer

    Kinda like 2 year olds with their selective hearing and comprehension.

  • http://wonderwheels.blogspot.com/ Gregory Wonderwheel

    First, Mr. Moyers often criticizes the Democrats as he does in this very video so he should not be lumped with them.
    Second, in what way are the Democrats being “stubborn” or “arbitrary” or even “intransigent”? A simple Continuing Resolution on the budget is needed. This is how it has always been done. But now the Republicans are saying defund the ACA which is the law and has been ruled Constitutional by the Supreme Court, and if you don’t defund the ACA then we will stop the budget process. The Democrats are not being intransigent by saying, “No, we won’t change the rules of the game just because you don’t like a law that was already passed and ruled Constitutional.” Not giving in to a child having a temper tantrum is not intransigence, it is good parenting.

  • http://wonderwheels.blogspot.com/ Gregory Wonderwheel

    Good points, Sue. The only way that reasonable Republicans can get their party back is to do just what you say to prove to Republicans how out of touch with the majority the Tea Partiers really are.

  • http://americanmoocher.com/scoreboard AmericanMoocher

    Facts scare me.

  • Bruce Sandig

    Thank you, Mr. Moyers. I am disappointed to see only 138 comments as I write this.

  • Dutchwoman

    Dear Bill Moyers
    Please keep on to inform us. From the Netherlands I follow your show on the internet.
    I am amazed about the shut down and hope that this will end soon. It is very dangerous for the freedom in the Western world.
    Best regards.

  • PeoplesGovmt

    I agree, but I argue that since corporations can not make law (except through government), we should focus the majority of our efforts yelling at government.

  • Anonymous

    President Obama will not negotiate with the republicans it could send a wrong signal to Iran. The republicans miscalculated thinking the president would negotiate. The republicans created this mess they can solve this mess. Pass a clean CR and raise the debt ceiling on a up or down vote. It’s that simple they have to take their lumps like a man.

  • Anonymous

    The Democrats are proceeding on the assumption that since they managed to enact the ACA that they have then won the contest hands-down and that everyone else should at this point line up and salute. The Republicans, however, can remain in the game because they are still able to control the financing to some degree, and this is their right and power under the constitution, no matter how dyspeptic it makes Democrats and Mr. Moyers.

    They could either have a talk with the Republicans and see if there is some way of working through this problem, or they can remain unwavering, resolute, and refuse to compromise, that is, intransigent, and hope to frighten the Republicans into capitulating. This may not work.

    For all that Mr. Obama is supposed to be a constitutional scholar, there are times when he appears to think he is the prime minister of a parliamentary system where the majority party has nearly complete control. Our Madisonian constitutional system does not work that way (thank goodness) and the minority party has a number of ways of influencing affairs.

  • Paul Koberstein

    I believe that the Republicans are playing a very dangerous game. We should all worry about the future of our Democracy, our nation and our economy. If the Republicans can insist that we repeal some law that was passed a few years ago, then what prevents them from insisting that we repeal some other law they hate, like the prohibition of slavery or civil rights, or ELSE. Obama must stand his ground or allow the GOP to destroy everything. We should boot every state from the union that continues to elect tea party traitors.

  • Anonymous

    And the teabaggers wouldn’t last 5 minutes.

  • dhal9000

    So many otherwise moderate Republicans have been bullied into submission
    by the tea party extremists because of the corrupting influence of
    money in our politics. Anonymous money from deep pocketed donors flows
    (is laundered) through SuperPAC’s so that any candidate who crosses the
    right wing agenda will be assured of facing well financed primary
    opponents.
    Since so many gerrymandered districts are “safe” for the
    incumbent, the primaries have often become the real election, and it is a
    shadow election, driven not by voters (who show up in small numbers),
    but by funders who sponsor the campaigns. Those same sources who can
    offer lucrative jobs as lobbyists and corporate board members when the
    politicians and their senior staff finish their “public” service, like
    half of them do, Democrat and Republican.
    Congress isn’t broken, it’s
    “fixed”, and will stay so until we find a way to get the corrupting
    influence of money out of politics.

  • http://aebrain.blogspot.com Zoe_Brain

    Just wait till the DNC uses this against a GOP administration, now the precedent has been set.

    “Impeach the president, or we let the country default”.

    Or maybe you won’t have to wait, that might be the GOP’s demand in 2014.

    If this precedent is set, why not? There are already many on the extreme right who think the Federal government as we know it should be dissolved, to go back to a model appropriate for the 18th century. Ted Cruz being the best known espouser of this idea.

    Certainly since the 1930s much of the original constitution has been reinterpreted out of all recognition.

    Because it’s had to be. The clause about “No standing armies” for example. There isn’t supposed to be one, let alone a US Air Force. An exception was made for the Navy, as it was recognised that technical expertise was needed. But a 44 gun frigate is less complex than the engine of an M1A3 Abrams tank, and far less complex than an F-22′s undercarriage. The 18th century model doesn’t work unless interpreted freely, in spirit.

    The original idea was to have a constitutional convention every 20 years to deal with such changing circumstances. That didn’t work – political parties were formed instead.

    But I digress. The point is, many who control the primaries in safe GOP areas *want* a permanent shutdown, and any excuse will do. It’s not a bug but a desired feature.

  • http://aebrain.blogspot.com Zoe_Brain

    No – they got 1.4 million votes more than the other, but due to gerrymandered districts, got WAY less than 50% of the seats.
    Even if they won big in terms of number of votes, they still would get no better than approximate parity.

  • Anonymous

    I had a teacher who used to say “There are more horses’ asses than there are horses.” I think his comments are fitting for the current Teapublicant party.

  • Anne Dugan

    GET THE BUCK OUT OF POLITICS!!!

  • Anonymous

    Yes all sorts of bizarre things may be attempted by people who believe themselves and their rights to be overrun; that is one reason why it is imprudent to be try to implement major initiatives without a general consensus. The whole theory of our system was designed to preserve the interests of the lesser against the greater, and to prevent a tyranny of the majority.

    By the way, I would be indebted to you if you could refer me to the clause about “no standing armies.”

  • http://wonderwheels.blogspot.com/ Gregory Wonderwheel

    Can you name a single time when the Democrats refused to agree to a budget and closed the governement because they were sore losers on a law that passed? Surely you joke when you suggest the Republicans will give up their plan to “defund” the ACA. How about if the Democrats tell the Republicans that they can’t have a budget until they pass the gun control bill that the Republicans are preventing being voted on? Wouldn’t it be a compromise for the Democrats to give up their gun control bill and the Republicans to give up their
    desire to defund the ACA?

  • Anonymous

    “the liberal Rush”? Show me where he’s called anyone a sl*t and maybe we can consider it…

  • Anonymous

    My “party” had been the libertarian party after Bush Sr pardoned every single player in the Iran Contra affair. I left the Libertarian party as it’s ranks began to swell with open racists and bigots. (That’s the Koch brothers’ influence)

    I sir, have no party that accurately reflects my wishes for this nation. And as an engineer, I live a life of pragmatism. And I will say again that nothing in the rant I responded to is accurate.

    The ACA is the height of political compromise and includes over 100 amendments that were put forth by the republican party, To imply that the law was “rammed down our throats” is reflective of the massive republican bias in the media consumed by the ranter.

  • Anonymous

    This discussion has grown sterile and repetitive, wandering far from the point.
    Over and Out.

  • Anonymous

    I am hoping that with the internet more people will understand the political psychology behind campaigning. I’d like people to learn to recognize the “political Christian,” or understand that the real Welfare Queens are the corporations who pay their help so low that taxpayers subsidize their payroll with food stamps and welfare.
    I’d also like candidates to reveal who owns them through huge “contributions.”

  • Ann

    “We the people” is gone – and has been for a while. It’s “my way or the highway” now for the Republican party and the word tantrum is a perfect description of their behavior.

  • Katie Feeney

    We have gone from ‘We the People’ to the Republican version….’We the People with money’

  • Anonymous

    Now, exactly WHO painted that picture for you??
    Who gets MOST “free stuff” are major corporations and the military-industrial complex, creating new enemies and fighting phantoms, while many of the real “democracy-haters” destroying our Constitution, sit in Congress.
    BTW, your taxes and my taxes pay for cleaning up ALL the unresolved pollution problems and “healthcare” failures that wind up on the Public’s bill. THAT is PRIVATE-Sector Failure — a hidden sabotage to our budget! By the folks who move our jobs overseas, & don’t think they should pay taxes!

  • Anonymous

    Is it all that shocking that the GOP of today, led around by the Tea Party Taliban is behaving exactly as Southern racists of the past would? After all, since the GOP, especially in the South, got their positions because of the “Southern Strategy” used by the GOP to won previously Democratic States via appealing to racist elements in the South. The “Party of Lincoln” so compromised, is about as far from Lincoln’s ideals as we are from Jupiter. I am not shocked or even mildly surprised they are this way.

  • Herman Peaquist

    Barack Obama is the biggest tantrum thrower of anyone to sit in the Oval Office. His “my way or the higway” is evident from his statement that he refuses to negotiate.

  • Anonymous

    Registering Green, no matter how you end up voting is a good idea. It grows the segment of people who identify with fairness, real democracy with real & free elections, and a sane sustainable future. It’s like voting twice!
    See voteTwice.us & registerGreen.us.

  • Anonymous

    YES!, We (and many times just I) tend to forget the mile long “sacred private sector” train wrecks that are scattered along the highway that are picked up by the public sector….GREAT POST!

  • Anonymous

    I am amazed at the lack of integrity, honesty and compassion that seem to be at the heart of this insanity. Basic human values that used to be American moral grounding here have been eroded into power grabbing, wealth building and elitism at all costs, with little concern for the public that these “Public Servants” represent. I personally find it hard to believe that they can be so blind to their own moral ineptitude. My greatest wish is that their Karma bites them big time. Even if our Government is no longer a just institution, I hope the universe still is.

  • Anonymous

    I would expect nothing less from you, Bill. You are an extreme leftist and you will never see the true value of the Tea Party. We are completely disgusted by out-of-control Washington spending and the disregard shown to our Constitution by both parties but most of all, your beloved Democrats. You are part of the wedge that helps to polarize our country. You have no shame.

  • Anonymous

    Amen Brother. I’m from Colorado, and the percentage of the registered voters who voted favor of recalling State Senator Morse was 14% of the voters in his district. In congressional primaries it’s also the militants who turn out and defeat more moderate incumbents. The people sit back and complain when they could easily defeat the extremists. One reason Boehner has suddenly sided with the Tea Party is because he fears a primary. This guy is ready to reduce the whole country to smoking ruins, rather than risk a primary conrest.

  • Will

    “We are completely disgusted by out-of-control Washington spending.” As you are probably fully aware, this shutdown has nothing to do with a concern for government spending. The Affordable Care Act will account for an extremely small percentage of the current federal deficit. And for that matter, Obama’s primary contribution to the deficit has been due to the unprecedented need to stimulate the economy in lieu of the economic crisis that began in 2008. Republicans are quick to ignore the fact that Republican presidents have presided over much larger deficits than Democrats. The only time in the last 30 years that we’ve been even close to a surplus was during the prosperity of the Clinton years. If Republicans are truly concerned about the budget deficit, they would be pointing the finger at themselves much more. But again, that’s not what this shutdown is about.

  • Anonymous

    Bill hits the nail on the head.

  • Anonymous

    Bye bye Chicken.

  • Anonymous

    Awesome!

  • Brenda Duffey

    Before you take sides in your partisan journalism, you think you could re-read the 14 Amendment that was expanded to give women the right to choose what happens in their body? Then explain how the Democrats’ demand that those of us who object to supporting the medical industry that does nothing but offer drugs and poisonous therapies we don’t want in our body is not a threat to democracy.

  • Anonymous

    A minority of our representatives are circumventing a law that was passed by the majority. This is called undemocratic. It could also be called a coup.

  • Anonymous

    TELL ME: What is “Legal” about getting “voted in” when over 90% of our Congressional Districts were gerrymandered to “make sure” there were Republican and Democratic districts. It’s a game. Apparently one you are buying into.

  • Anonymous

    Ohhh, nasty, nasty, you are upset!
    Avoiding facts and stamping your feet on the ground is something you seem to share with the shutdown nutcases in D.C.

  • travelershe

    The BIGGEST NEW corporate give away is to the insurance companies, accelerated thru Obamacare: (most for profit, including big pharma and corp. hospitals) as they continue to run our healthcare system and we are allowing it!

  • tenn.engineer

    I am so tired of people describing folks from the south as racist, full of hate, and uneducated. One of the greatest riots that ever took place was Chicago when MLK had a rally. King noted “I have seen many demonstrations in the south but I have never seen anything so hostile and so hateful as I’ve seen here today’’

  • travelershe

    No kidding. Shame on you Mr. Moyers for the ridiculous choices of media spin used as if most Republicans are in that category of belief.

  • William P Barron

    Bill Moyers is delusional to blame Rush and/or the Tea Party. He need look no further than the vindictive actions taken by Obama to close the war memorials in DC, to shutter private business whose access passes thru federal land, to demand state parks that receive ANY federal funding TO CLOSE. On second thought, Bill Moyers would make Joseph Goebbels proud!

  • John ‘Genryu’

    You support an extremist, fascist hate group. If you don’t understand how that supports extortion then you really do need to go and educate yourself. No person of conscience, when informed, can support such a terrorist organisation. That you do speaks volumes about you.

  • John ‘Genryu’

    Technically the US is already a fascist state and also a failed state. However the outright and overt fascism of the US right wing is accelerating the loss of democracy in the US and there should be action taken to return the country to being at least a semi functioning representative democracy of some sort.

  • Anonymous

    If Government is the problem, Republicans and their idiotic “trickle-down” lapdog supporters should be kept away from our government.

  • moderator

    Please take a moment to read our comment policy before commenting. We have a zero-tolerance policy on personal attacks. This includes attacking other members of the community or any member of our staff.

    Thank You,
    Sean @ Moyers

  • Steve Briggs

    I’ll check it out

  • slg321

    In fact, Myers repeatedly referred to the radical tea party fringe in the House, and didn’t once say or imply that all Republicans are like that. If you’re still confused what Moyers said, please watch and listen again.

  • BIG Steve

    Precisely!

  • Steve Briggs

    The assertion that President Obama’s re-election was a
    mandate on the ACA is not true. In the largest power shift in 70 years,
    Republicans regained control of the House in 2010. The GOP also gained Senate
    seats in 2012. This was due to opposition to the ACA. The House is using their
    Constitutional authority as a check on Executuve overreach as the Constitution
    spells out. The other part of the Dems argument says it us already a law and
    not open to debate, but how can the Executive branch decide which portions if
    the ACA they will enforce? Can anyone really argue that the “law” is
    being enacted with all the missed deadlines and waivers?

  • Anonymous

    A note on “trickle down economics ” money stays up there where it is , poop trickles down .

  • Anonymous

    Tea party does not care if The Ship of State goes up on the rocks , as long as they are at the helm .

  • B. Erle Hollingsworth

    The solution is less government! Obviously the country can’t afford what is being spent now. It wasn’t government that made this country great! It was freedom! Freedom from tyranny, freedom from oppression, freedom from excessive taxation, freedom from improper and unnecessary regulation. Now under the guise of altruism, seemingly well meaning people are in favor of giving up those very freedoms.

  • Anonymous

    The Civil War never ended , the Republicans and Democrats went through a bi-polar reversal . The Northern Elite [Yankee money ] developed a conscience on slavery , the Southern Elite[ Dixie money ] did not an will not .17 Southern Republican senators will not admit that Obama is the legal President of the United States , and that is because they are pandering to their racist bases . The House is yet even worse .

  • DKM

    Our obligations? We obviously can’t afford these “obligations” or we wouldn’t be in such deep debt. We are a bankrupt nation — in so many ways. Tragic. And the worst is yet to come.

  • Mary Whisler Maxwell

    Well said.

  • B. Erle Hollingsworth

    You can pay as much taxes as you want! The IRS will take all the money you want to give. And when you say corporations, don’t leave out the big health insurance companies, the large pharmaceutical companies, and the large unions.

  • Anonymous

    Gregory Wonderwheel – you are referencing part of a statement made by M Friedman. He did say that it was “… conduct the business in accordance with their desires which will generally be to make as much money as possible while conforming to basic rules of society, both those embodied in law and those embodied in society ethical custom.” He further clarified this in NYT 9/13/1970 , “… so long as it(the business) stays within the rules of the game, which is to say, engages in open and free competition w/o deception or fraud.”

    Republicans & faux libertarians constantly the part about laws and free from fraud & deception.

  • Anonymous

    I suggest you go back and read what Barack Obama advocated when he was running for the presidency in 2008. You will see that his preference was quite different than what passed. How did that happen? Compromise aka political sausage making. It was never as easy as just looking at what worked in other countries. Republicans and Democrats advocated for their favorite causes, debated and compromised to make ACA what it is. Then the Republicans voted NO. It isn’t perfect, but it is a step forward to making sure that all Americans have access to health care.
    While I share your frustration about what has been happening, I think you are somewhat misinformed.

  • Anonymous

    Republicans didn’t gain seats in the House due to opposition to the ACA. They gained seats because their partner-in-crime state legislators gerrymandered the districts so as to make it next-to-impossible for them to lose. That, plus massive funding from their corporate campaign donors.

  • Anonymous

    Miss Crease/TheKaisho42, If Lincoln were around today and he had the same beliefs, he would not be a Progressive. Lincoln was an Originalist. He said he had never had a political thought that didn’t trace its origins to the Declaration of Independence. A half century after Lincoln President Woodrow Wilson, the godfather of Progressives, said that some people just could not get over the Declaration of Independence.

    Lincoln believed that the Constitution was the means to the Declaration’s ends – that government exists to secure the natural rights of each individual to live and pursue happiness.

    Our society is the only one in the history of the planet to declare that its reason for existence is to secure the rights of the individual.

    People may disagree with the principles of Lincoln, Jefferson, and Madison, but they are the First Principles of our country.

  • Lee Zaslofsky

    Thanks, Bill, for an excellent, blunt summary of what is going on in America right now.

    O too see the current crisis as a form of “modernized” Secession. That, fo me, links the fight for Obamacare (flawed as it is) with the fight for the Union and the feedom of enslaved people; with the struggle against Jim Crow and lynch law; with the struggle against segregation and racist vote suppression; and other forms of the same struggle for democratization of American life.(I would put gun control in the same category).

    That means that it is no longer possible simply to try to negotiate a solution that leaves everyone unhappy, as you wistfully say. It is time to mobilize and defeat the forces that have, throughout the existence of America, whether as colonies or as a nation, constantly resisted and undermined every attempt to extend democracy.

    I hope many people take to heart your comments, and realize that, once again, the future of the United States as a democracy is now called into question. This is not a game; it’s not childish bickering; it’s not a lot of shenanigans. it’s an existential threat to the democracy so many millions have fought and many died for.

    They must not pass!

  • Lee Zaslofsky

    Every country has a national debt. Every family has debts. Most students have debts. Are you saying that all the things these debts have paid for should not have been undertaken?

  • Lee Zaslofsky

    Here in Canada, where there has been single payer health care for about 50 years, we are at a loss to figure out what is so scary about the weak, watered down compromise that is Obamacare.

    A recent poll showed 89.9% of Canadians like their health care system. Are we all crazy? Are we serfs in a communist hell? Answer: Don’t make us laugh.

  • Lee Zaslofsky

    Unions are not corporations. They are membership organizations run on democratic principles, one person, one vote. (not one share one vote.).

  • Lee Zaslofsky

    The Constitution established a government. There has always been plenty of oppression in America — slavery, Jim Crow, oppression of workers, oppression of women, of Indigenous Peoples, of gays, of many minorities, religious, racial, cultural. It has, by and large, been the federal government that has fought against those forms of oppression, while the people who benefited from them cried “tyranny”.

  • Lee Zaslofsky

    Moyers is a Southerner himself.

  • Tater

    “Southern Republican senators will not admit that Obama is the legal President of the United States ”

    Oh puhleeze. You guys are still looking for hanging chads in Florida. Good grief man!

  • Lee Zaslofsky

    The Affordable Care ACT (and Act of Congress = law) was duly enacted, signed, challenged in the Supreme Court and upheld as constitutional by the Court. The federal government has the authority to enact the law, and until is revoked, it is the duty of citizens to obey it. That how democracy works. What’s your alternative?

  • Tater

    Ummm…remember they are riding in the back. It’s the Big O who has the helm. It seems the oarsmen on that ship of state aren’t responding to the lash.

  • Lee Zaslofsky

    Unfortunately, yes, the racist thing again. Some whites want to keep blacks and Latinos from getting access to health care, So they try to destroy Obamacare.

  • Anonymous

    Soooooo sick and tired of the blame game. It takes two to tango. Both parties are to blame neither party will work with each other. They should all be thrown out and we should start over.

  • Tater

    Perhaps if our friends in the north would give a little sumpin sumpin to the R&D efforts of the drug manufacturers, we too could see our drug prices go down. Americans are paying the lions share of these costs and investments, allowing other governments to negotiate lower drug prices. What’s up with that?

  • Tater

    Perhaps if our friends in the north would give a little sumpin sumpin to the R&D efforts of the drug manufacturers, we too could see our drug prices go down. Americans are paying the lions share of these costs and investments, allowing other governments to negotiate lower drug prices. What’s up with that?

  • litprof

    A certain level of deficit spending is perfectly healthy, and certain emergencies — war, for example, at least in some cases — require spending but cannot always be anticipated.

    The deficit right now is at about 3% of GDP, which is historically anything but unusual. The national debt, on the other hand, is higher than it should be, but that took a long time to build up, and it’s going to take a long time to bring down.

    The proposal you suggest is the kind of simplistic proposal that appeals to people who know absolutely nothing about how the world works.

  • litprof

    A certain level of deficit spending is perfectly healthy, and certain emergencies — war, for example, at least in some cases — require spending but cannot always be anticipated.

    The deficit right now is at about 3% of GDP, which is historically anything but unusual. The national debt, on the other hand, is higher than it should be, but that took a long time to build up, and it’s going to take a long time to bring down.

    The proposal you suggest is the kind of simplistic proposal that appeals to people who know absolutely nothing about how the world works.

  • Anonymous

    Another driver for corporate personhood is the desire by wealthy shareholders to shield other assets in the event of a bankruptcy. That is if a corporation goes bankrupt the shareholders cannot lose more than their shares. Other of the assets of those owners are shielded from creditors.

  • Anonymous

    when my daughter was at Stanford Hospital several years ago, I sat with a woman from Canada in the waiting room, we struck up a friendship because my daughter and her husband was there. She told me they came to Stanford because her husband needed heart surgery and she said he would have died before he could get it in Canada so they came to Stanford Hosp in Calif. I said to her but your healthcare is free. I can still hear her laugh she said No it’s not we pay plenty for it.. I’m assuming she meant in taxes. I do have to admit I liked her very much, Canadians are great.

  • Anonymous

    There are techniques for establishing congressional districts based on the minimum length of the fence around the requisite # of voters. I suggest that for federal elections these techniques be used with the state house of each state the starting point.

    For state level elections – state houses, etc can suit the states.

  • Anonymous

    ? Am I missing something here, the bill was passed in 2010 when the dems controlled both houses.

  • Anonymous

    so true, so so true

  • Anonymous

    Of course government is the problem, they dont live within their means. So they are always looking for ways to get more money out of the people. I just came back from SF visiting my daughter. And in every store you go into if you purchase something they charge you 10 cents a bag that goes directly to the city government. Also parking meters are everywhere and it’s $4 an hour to park.

  • Anonymous

    Pretty sure it’s the elected officials that are the problem

  • Anonymous

    Hmm, how do you suppose we do that?

    As far as I can tell only one party has threatened to bring about economic damage to our nation unless we abandon constitutional process.
    Sooo.. do you think it’s time for a new constitution or should we JUST MAYBE consider honoring the one we have?

  • Anonymous

    well at least our dept of education shouldn’t have been funded.
    It’s obvious that all Americans are well-informed.

  • Anonymous

    And they’re taking hostages and making demands- now that’s what I call democracy.
    Gotta love it.

  • Anonymous

    Did you bother watching the video?

  • Anonymous

    good point about that corporate welfare,

  • Anonymous

    Write congressmen?
    Tpartiers already have got form letters going.

  • Anonymous

    No, it’s the bought and paid for officials. Citizen United did away with “we, the people”

  • Anonymous

    How about they repeal Women’s right to vote.
    Conservatives fought hard against that one.

  • Larry Stauth

    Negotiation is the basis of two sides reaching a common ground. That fact we have billions of people and various opinions dictated that tolerance and flexibility for the differentiating opinions require negotiating.

    If the roles were to be reversed, people would be accusing the President of being intolerant.

  • Anonymous

    I thought about it and you are right, the democrat party carries the most blame

  • Anonymous

    Of course there should be negotiations. That is what a good government does to work out their problems.

  • Anonymous

    Thank you, Bill. By giving aid and comfort to our enemies, to me the Tea-Party-Gingrich mentality borders on treason.

  • Larry Stauth

    Wow, what a load of horse pucky…

    First off, right off the start, Mr. Moyer chooses to falsify facts. The Republicans in 2010 won out more seats in Congress, so his assertion they lost the last 3 election cycles is a total load of bunk.

    Seriously folks, who here does not know that in 2009 and 2010 was a Democratic “Super Majority”? Exactly how did that change, if the Republicans lost seats?

    Oh yeah, why did they win seats in 2010? People were upset because of ObamaCare passing and out of control spending!

    Then, he calls Fox and Limbaugh liars, exempt the very information he claims as “untrue”, like the assertion of Limbaugh’s is actually validated in the Supreme Court ruling.

    Speaking of the Supreme Court ruling, it was only deemed Constitutional as A TAX!!! And given the stated amount of expected tax revenue, it would make it the largest, single tax in the history of the US.

    Then factor he seems to assert that “millions” of low income will be without, because the Republican refused to implement… hate to break it to everyone, but the Republicans in Congress have no impact on the states decisions!! They only handle their districts.

    Obviously, Mr. Moyer is only bent on feeding the troll, otherwise, he would have really stuck to the facts.

    #1 President Obama announced weeks BEFORE the shutdown he would not negotiate on the issue of the budget.

    #2. The GOP did not send a bill to the Senate that included Defunding Obamacare.

    #3 The Democratic leadership of the Senate refused to talk with the Republican House Leadership, until Obama requested it of them. Guess it’s “Political Gamesmanship” when the Republicans try talking to them, but not when the President asks?

    #4 The President has had since March to negotiate with the Republicans on dealing with the 2 keys issues, he has refused on all accounts.

    #5 Prior to March 2013, the Democrat lead Senate had not passed a budget since it was a 50/50 split along party lines, so apparently the Senate can only pass a budget when they are forced to do so, even though the Constitution requires it to be done every year…

    #6. There have been numerous circumvents of the US Constitution by the President, he is setting the bar.

    The simple fact is this… the President MUST get his head out of his *** and figure out that there is a large chunk of US citizens that do not want Obamacare. The fact he has dictated the US taxpayers to further increase the insurance Corporations earnings, should be really one of the evident problems the middle class understands, but they don’t… they only see what people like Mr. Moyer are allowing to be seen.

  • Anonymous

    did I get you to think? that’s a good thing.
    “the most blame” for what , bringing down the constitution?
    If Dems grant concessions to political terrorists, I’ll have to agree with you.
    Time will tell.

  • Larry Stauth

    Though it’s easy if you look at the semantic to draw the connection between the two, there is a huge divide that actually separate the two.

    One, is the Abolishment of Slavery affected more than just the South and African Slaves were NOT the only slaves freed. Anyone that understand the true history of the West Coast, namely San Francisco, knows the Chinese were also slaves, and not just one or two, there were as many in reported numbers.

    And the North did attempt to negotiate…

    The GOP has, for the last couple years, attempted to use whatever means to negotiate on many of the issues with ObamaCare. Last years budget was not officially passed until March of this year.. 6 months late.

    The President has refused one of his major job duties, to negotiate the will of ALL THE PEOPLE!! Not just those that support him.

    The fact he refuses to address the major flaws, and problems with the ACA, or the concerns of the people is more the reason people should be upset, at the President. Not the messenger of that opposition.

    Fine example, during the initial talk of ObamaCare, President Obama said adamantly, “IT IS NOT A TAX!” Yet, what did he say to the Supreme Court? “It is a tax”, because he knew that would be the only grounds to make it legal.

    It is the #1 reason why I NEVER TRUST A LAWYER! The fact that he knows how to circumvent the Constitution (he is a Constitutional Lawyer) really should be cause for alarm.

  • Larry Stauth

    Debt is one thing, the “obligations” to which Mr. Moyer spoke are things like the Billions promised to Egypt, or the millions spent on non-essential research, like the mating habits of some insect, or the billions spent to have 5 agencies that do the same job, or the obligation to pay for the billion dollars a year corporation known as Planned Parenthood, who claim the money is being used for Women’s health, when in fact, it’s promoting modern day Eugenics…

    Paying money you borrowed is one thing. Paying for the Politicians and their staff to get subsidized payments on their Health Insurance is something else, is something else. The fact they are allowed to negotiate financial trades on inside information or legally be exempt from the same laws passed should not be an obligation of the people.

    Which is the discussion…

  • Shelby_re

    He stated the last 3 elections the republicans did not control the senate…which is true… & as far as the Supreme Court ruling…I think you need actually read it. I’m not sure where you are getting your info

  • Anonymous

    Half of the US budget goes to defense spending. HALF!! Entitlements are not the problem, defense spending has been out of control for some time. And the deficit has actually been shrinking during the current presidency. Contrary to media reports about government spending.

  • Anonymous

    Thomas Sowell also believed in the trickle-down theory of economics. How has that worked out?

  • Anonymous

    Rather than give low-income women access to clinics and low-cost contraception – while yelling about abortion. Only idiots would restrict access to contraception.

  • Anonymous

    That is a great article. I wish more people would read it. Let’s remember that Boehner got 98% of what he wanted in the last budget showdown. They have gotten plenty of compromises.These fools only represent 18% of the population, so they are full of it when they say they are some kind of majority with a mandate. They come from the whitest of white congressional districts – the only ones in the country where the proportion of white residents is actually INCREASING. And they are located in many former bastions of the old South. Bill’s analogy is really not much of a stretch.

  • Anonymous

    The new health care act doesn’t require a whole lot of federal spending. It will consist mostly of more people purchasing insurance, which should bring down health care costs for everyone. The defense budget is HALF of our yearly federal spending, yet they never mention that. 716 BILLION per year. And that’s before you get into all the corporate tax breaks. These same politicians want to make budget cuts in entitlements, which include Social Security. What a cut in SS amounts to is the rich getting a tax break from money that working people pay into the SS fund. What that amounts to could be considered a HUGE tax increase on the middle class. This is what these Tea Party politicians are advocating. Blinding you with FEAR, while they take money out of your pocket with their other hand. They represent the wealthy who want tax breaks and no regulations. That’s what Moyers is telling you. They are paid a lot of money to LIE to you, and steal all of your money.

  • Anonymous

    Actually, 1.5 million more people in the country cast a ballot for a democrat in those House races. Gerrymandered districts DO NOT represent the majority of the citizens, regardless of the ridiculous clams these people are making. The Reps who voted to shut down the government represent only 18% of the people who voted.

  • http://4allyourwritingneeds.com/ randy

    Repubs have spent their entire time in office since 2009 refusing everything that Obama proposed, even the health care law that was created by Republicans in the Heritage Foundation and implemented by Mitt Romney in Mass. Now they complain that the president is not negotiating with their demand for ransom? They are the party of no, remember?

  • http://4allyourwritingneeds.com/ randy

    You don’t know what the hell you’re talking about.

  • Anonymous

    Yeah, buddy, that means you have had too many of your “facts” countered and are now out of arguments.

  • Anonymous

    Great post!

  • Anonymous

    I love the way you think! Since I have retired I have realized that I can say whatever I want publicly without fear of repercussions. It is very freeing.

  • Anonymous

    The news media representing these issues as two valid sides is a huge part of the problem. Aside from all the wacko right-wing bloggers and news outlets that completely misrepresent things. Also, the way that Boehner can say things before the entire country that are flat-out lies is indefensible. Scorched-earth policy will not work for anyone. Even those who are currently in favor of it.

  • Anonymous

    Have you heard? O’Reilly killed Jesus! What a boring moronic narcissist. People pay $500 to get their picture taken with him. What a scam he’s got!

  • Anonymous

    You’re right. None of these people would have been marginally electable if they had not had big money backing them. There is a quarter-billion dollar fund that the Koch’s set up that is not covered by campaign disclosure laws. There ought to be a limit on what any corporation is able to contribute.

  • Anonymous

    Except that these folks represent the tyranny of $$$$ against the will of a majority of citizens.

  • Anonymous

    Nobody said this law is without flaws. Yet a lot of people are really desperate to get the chance to purchase health insurance because they can’t with pre-existing conditions. This law will not solve all problems, nor will it provide health care for everyone. It does put more money into the system so hospitals will not go broke because people go to the ER. It will lower hospital costs for that reason as well. But shutting down the government is not the process you go through to change a law. Besides, they are not asking for change, they are asking for the entire program to be scrapped! That isn’t any compromise. It doesn’t solve any of the real problems with the new law, nor does it does it address the issue that the law helps people with. Therefore, it has nothing to do with any real change, but just a power struggle that they are already destined to lose. There are plenty of Republicans who are happy with this new law. And the governors who are not setting up exchanges or expanding Medicaid are totally shooting themselves in the foot.

  • Anonymous

    It was passed with plenty of discussion and negotiation, mostly with insurance company executives. And the law is subject to change through due process like any other law, which means that any problems with it can be fixed down the line. No law is perfect – but this law solves problems that the currents discussion about “negotiation” has no ideas about.

    Saying you want the whole thing to be defunded is not negotiation or problem-solving. And a heck of a lot of people have now read it, including probably millions of Americans, and are pretty happy with it. You were just informed that it was debated for six years. People did know what was in it, because they are the ones who put it together. Amendments were added by Republicans during this process. So a few tea party guys who were not even in congress when the whole thing was hashed out now want to rewrite history and pretend that didn’t happen? What are their solutions? It’s not a serious debate to say – defund the ACA and build the Keystone pipeline, pass Paul Ryan’s tax reform program, and defund social programs or we will shut down the government, is not really an argument about health care is it? These people are not serious, they are just putting on a stunt. A stunt that reasonable people are getting very sick of.

  • Anonymous

    The scary part is that six people actually up-voted this incoherent, factless rant.

  • Anonymous

    He met with House members, including Boehner, a week before the shutdown. Stop believing everything you hear, because you are being directly misinformed and lied to.

  • Anonymous

    Was that when Boehner told the press that he got “98% of what he wanted?” When Republicans don’t get 100% of what they want, they now say the other side won’t “compromise.” That is horse-puckey.

  • Reality Check

    Larry,face reality or admit you hate America and Americans. Obama cut spending and taxes -these are facts- he lost seats because he is black.

  • Reality Check

    There where negotiations that is how the ACA was created it is essentially the Republican proposal.keep up with facts.

  • Anonymous

    apples and oranges bunky , pick a different tactic .

  • Anonymous

    more like tea party and GOP fouling the rudder

  • Anonymous

    What??? How do you know he lost seats because he is black? I think that’s pretty silly.

  • Anonymous

    Why is wanting smaller federal government and lower taxes treasonous?

  • Anonymous

    Obama is not king. We have a government with 3 co-equal branches. The executive, no matter who occupies the office, is no more powerful than the congress or the courts. If you understand anything about our government you would know that the founders intentionally created a system to make it hard to make radical changes. We should repeal the 17th amendment and return the senate to its original intent.

  • Anonymous

    We are not a democracy. We are a constitutional republic. Big difference. Seems to me Obama and Reid are the ones forgetting what roles they play in our government. Obama is not king or dictator. Dems are the ones pushing us towards banana republic status.

  • Anonymous

    Yes, you are missing something. There were months of negotiations and hearings. Chuck Grassley and Olympia Snowe were involved in the deal making along with others less famous. After the deals were made, the Republican leadership decided that all Republicans had to vote no and they obeyed. Then the pr campaign began to mislead and frighten people. The law isn’t perfect but Republicans contributed to making it that way.

  • http://www.myspace.com/_lovedaddy_ JohnnyMorales

    What blame game.

    How did the Democrats shut down gubmint?

    They said they would not defund the AHA.

    How did that shut down gubmint?

  • http://www.myspace.com/_lovedaddy_ JohnnyMorales

    Sure we can afford them.

    Who is telling you that lie?

    On what do they base this claim?

    Evidence of not being able to afford it would be sky high rates of interest on our debt, but it’s as close to zero as it can get and has been for nearly a decade.

    Can you site some EVIDENCE indicating we cannot afford it, beyond just saying we can’t?

  • Anonymous

    Great irrelevant anecdote!

  • Nick Noble

    True, and the checks-and-balances system has been fully utilized. Both Houses of Congress debated on the ACA (for over a year!), reached a compromise (the President wanted single payer– the mandate [originally a conservative Heritage Foundation idea and successfully implemented by a Republican governor in Massachusetts] was a concession to Congress), and passed by both the House and the Senate (that’s the first check-and-balance: they have to come to an agreement). The President signed it in to law (that’s the second check-and-balance). It was (as it should have been) challenged in the courts (that’s the third check-and-balance) and the Supreme Court declared it Constitutional (at least the major sticking point– mandate and penalty– was declared Constitutional). True, they called the penalty a tax, but that part of the legislation DID originate in the House, so it passed muster. Of course, the ultimate check-and-balance remained: the will of the American people. In 2012 the abolition of the ACA was a linchpin of the Republican platform. And the people re-elected the President. The problem is that the current shutdown is npot over a bill (pending legislation)– that has a precedent. The current shutdown is over an existing law that has survived every check-and-balance test. If those opposed to ACA had submitted their own, alternative health care bill, featuring those aspects of ACA which the American people like (no pre-existing condition denials, kids covered to 26, more choice options) and none of what the people dislike (mandate and penalty) I would have supported it: Obamacare is flawed. But this is an attempt to circumvent the Founders’ system of checks and balances.

  • John W Greco

    The Tea Party Republicans are intransigent ideologues. That’s unfortunate. The size, scope and cost of our government need to be dramatically reduced. However, closing down the government and defaulting on debt payments is exactly the wrong approach, because it is self destructive. John W Greco, Scottsdale, AZ

  • Anonymous

    These Republicans really believe that Democrats and the people will give in to their antics and let them have their way. I hope we don’t and I hope we can find a way around them because they are a dangerous bunch and must be removed from Congress in the most expeditious ethical way. The only thing wrong with Obamacare is that it doesn’t go far enough thanks to Republican obstruction. One day soon I hope we will these jerks out of our government and give ourselves and our fellows the single-payer Medicare-type insurance that would truly serve us all.

  • Tater

    ANYONES’s fault but Barry’s. We understand.

  • Anonymous

    Not sure I agree with you regarding ACA. I do remember Obama telling the Republicans to ride in the back seat and keep their mouths shut, of course I am paraphrasing. I remember the kickbacks and payoffs and rushing the vote to get it past. I remember Nancy Pelosi using rules trickery to pass the senate version without house debate. I also remember the Republicans being shut out of negotiations to put any sort of free market private sector solutions into the health care law. Many things were proposed. So, yes while technically you are correct. The ACA may have been passed to the letter of the law but definately not in the spirit of the law.
    Republicans ran and won the house on repeal of Obama care. They did pass a measure in the house to repeal it. As we all know because republicans do not have the votes in the senate Harry Reid let the bill die.

  • Michael Ring

    Republicans HAVE gotten their message out. It’s just a disingenuous message that most intelligent voters see through.

  • Anonymous

    I want the federal government to be constrained to their enumerated powers and all else be left to the states as was originally indended.

  • c’est moi

    What an absurd lack of understanding. Responding to terrorist threats is not the same thing as “negotiating” in good faith. The time for negotiations passed some 45-attempts-to-abolish ACA ago. The debate resulted in the passage of the law. Get over your childish ignorant assed selves. God, it’s embarrassing.

  • Anonymous

    You will probably eventually get your wish. That is how the ACA was designed by admission. It is only a stop gap to single payer.

  • Anonymous

    I would be happy with the party of HELL NO :)

  • Terri DiA

    Since ACA/Obamacare is not funding thru discretionary spending, the funding in the current CR, but funded like Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid it has nothing to do with the CR/Budget currently on the House floor. The GOTP demand is that the President defund his law after Congress already wrote the funding method into the bill he signed into law. The ‘purse string holding Congress’ did its job, funded the program. This is not a matter of on going spending. This is a matter of not liking the outcome of the 2012 election and trying to turn the tables on the winner.

  • Anonymous

    I seriously doubt that you understand anything other than to parrot Tea Party memes. That’s to be expected . LOLOL..to have a large animal veterinarian [tea party elected Rep. ] lecturing economics professors is so Tea Party , and a loon like Bachmann claiming the Second coming is at hand ?

  • Anonymous

    And your government can spend a large portion of its revenue on health care becuse you rely on the United States to defend you. We don’t have that luxury. Our constitution demands the federal goverment defend us. That is an enumerated power. Providing medical care for everyone is not.

  • Terri DiA

    No the President is not king. And the GOP/TP is only ONE branch of a 3 branch government. Please do the math. The House has 2 branches standing against it. Boehner, et. al. needs to wake up, they do not solely run the government, they just think they do.

  • Anonymous

    My question for you is where is the Obama that campaigned in 2008? He was going to be the most responsible spending, transparent administration in the history of administrations. If he did the things he promised in that campaign I might have liked the guy. Obama castigated Bush, called him unpatriotic for his debt. What has Obama done? He has made Bush look like a credit card piker. Obama has made his own legacy. Republicans are doing what their constituents elected them to do.

  • JonThomas

    Lol… “stop gap to single payer”?

    Holding my breath…

    Hold out hope I suppose, even when you know it’s a false promise.

  • Anonymous

    Terri, the republicans have sent several CR bills to the senate. Ask Harry Reid why he is still sitting on them?

  • Anonymous

    I can pull the Obama quotes if you would like. I am sure you can use google as well or better than me.

  • JonThomas

    The Constitution does have defense provisions, but do we really have to go back to President Eisenhower every time the subject of military spending comes up in a discussion? Learn the lesson and move on.

    The U.S. Constitution also has outlined provisions (a mission, if you will) for promoting the ‘General Welfare,’ and ‘and securing the blessings of liberty.’

    Forging a system to ‘provide medical care for everyone’ is well within the outlined mission of the Constitution.

    Threats to a society do come from outside, but they also come from within.

    At this time in history, the threat of economic inequality is creating an instability that is far and away more imminent a threat than any that may come from one able to be solved through military spending.

    Even threats to so-called ‘American Interests’ are the resulting reactions to the exploits of those who are benefiting from U.S. inequality… a self-entitled class, known popularly as the 1%.

    Liberty is in danger. Democracy now only serves this plutocratic 1%. The ‘people’ are in danger not from the efforts of other nations or physically hostile forces, but primarily from the loss of power that should come from economic security.

    When economic security is lost to a powerful elite, which increasingly uses the resulting inequality-generated power differential to buy, finance, and corrupt politicians (even right down to the writing of laws through organizations like ALEC,) to the goal of transforming Government into it’s own molded tool, then it becomes imperative for the people to demand legislation which ‘Promotes the General Welfare,’ and ‘Secures the Blessings of Liberty.’

    Healthcare reform, especially the “Universal” models used by the vast majority of ‘Wealthy…’ ‘Western…’ Democratic Nations of the world, stands out as the only sane, practical option for ensuring the security of the United States.

  • Russ Klettke

    Umm, no Connie. The TP numbers are down. The more people know and see, the more they get past their anger to study the issues.

  • JonThomas

    “We are not a democracy. We are a constitutional republic…”

    Ok, I’ve asked many, many people who post this ‘half’- truth a question…

    It is true that the U.S. is a Republic formed and organized under a Constitution… but it is also a Democracy.

    There are many types of republics.

    The Democratic aspect of the U.S’. Republic is encapsulated in the Constitution itself.

    While saying that ‘the U.S. is a Democracy’ is true, and… that ‘the U.S. is a Republic’ is true… simultaneously trying to assert that the U.S. is a Republic, but ‘NOT a Democracy’ is utterly false!! Such a statement is either bold faced ignorance, or out-right lie.

    My question is…who, or what group, is it exactly which keeps promoting this untruth?

  • Anonymous

    Convincing it to destroy its own economy.

  • JonThomas

    Dear TimCooper62,

    Please read my comment closely… I did not say that anyone did, or did not make the statement.

    I said that when such a statement (for that matter, any statement which acts as a prognostication on the future) is made, especially by politicians (in the form of a promise,) then the best any clear minded person can do is hope.

    Yes, hope!

    Hope… Even sadly when you know, by knowledge of precedent, that the statement can be backed up and enacted by neither action nor the power to achieve such an action.

  • Anonymous

    The ACA is really not that hard to read. It’s about the length of a George RR Martin novel, if more boring.
    And Congressmen *normally* don’t read bills. They have their aides read them, and then give them summaries. That way the Congressmen have more time for fundraising.

  • Anonymous

    Could you explain why not?

  • Anonymous

    Half of one branch, actually.
    And the Republican “CR” bills aren’t going through the senate because they’re demanding to defund the ACA, among other things, in exchange for funding the government for a few weeks.

  • JonThomas

    Those examples are not ‘problems.’ They are solutions.

    The people in that area have concluded that the actions being discouraged, through fees and taxation, are those which cause harm, or interfere with healthy living conditions.

    For example, If you want to pollute your neighborhood, then you are engaging in unproductive behavior. Fees and taxes, even penalties, are well proven methods to discourage unwanted behavior.

    Government is the apparatus best used by the people to promote what is in the community’s best interest. In fact, that is the VERY PURPOSE of Government.

  • Anonymous

    It’s their responsibility to PAY UP on what they already RAN UP > this is not about refusing to accept or reject a budget , it’s about paying for services ALREADY RENDERED .

  • Dave

    What’s embarrassing is your close minded view of things, how Republicans are wrong, and Democrats are right in everything they do….the true “terrorists” are those that distort the truth, hide behind their lies, and trick the US citizens that this law was passed with no quams, is what all Americans want and need. I’m sorry, but the true terrorists are our “faithless” leader, Obama, and Harry Reid, who has allowed every CR bill to die, because they won’t negotiate. I hate both Republicans and Democrats because they always point to the other and blame them for shit that they did wrong, but I for one do not want nor need the government to overstep it’s Constitutional boundaries, and dictate to me what “I need”, such as this health care reform in which those of the government have exempted themselves from using.

  • Anonymous

    Saying the US is both a Republic and a Democracy is akin to saying a woman is ‘a little pregnant’… it doesn’t work that way. Yes, both forms tend to use a representational system where citizens vote to elect politicians to represent their interests and form the government. However, the key difference is that in a republic, a constitution or charter of rights protects certain inalienable rights that cannot be taken away by the government, even if it has been elected by a majority of voters. In a democracy, the majority is not restrained and can impose its will on the minority. Clearly the latter is not the case in the US (or at least it’s not supposed to be…)

  • Jerry Squarey

    I believe it all boils down to money. All the drama and delays give lobbies more time to spread around as much money as possible. If it keeps on, we’ll have to rename Washington DC to East Hollywood.

  • Anonymous

    “The Tea Party Republicans are intransigent ideologues.”

    And, many of them live in AZ. Too bad!

    Nevertheless, I agree with your perspective, Mr. Greco about “self destructive”. TPGOP won’t fully understand that until after the 2014 election.

  • Anonymous

    I agree with almost all of this, but I don’t agree that the teabaggers are gripped by fever or throwing tantrums. That suggests they’ll come to their senses. But they’re fully in control of their senses. They know exactly what they’re doing. Because they keep losing elections, they’ve given up on majority rule and embraced blackjacking democracy. This isn’t fever or a hissy fit — it’s insurrection without gunfire.

  • Flipper44

    At the risk of sounding arrogant, for those few Americans with long memories and the ability to look into the future; we might start to consider what another 40 year democratic rule will look like. I know,

    most agree ‘the congressional lines are already drawn to reelect incumbents.’

    However, try to remember a day when Falwell, Robertson and Ralph Reed seemed invulnerable….until their constituency fell victim to aging.

    They never go gently into that good night, but as candles on Koch Brother Birthday cakes accumulate, we look back on God removing the ‘moral majority,’ not with taxes, but with flickering wicks, encased in wax, stuck in frosting and safely blown out before they can do serious harm.

    My arrogance is replaced with naive hope that Democracy is still “better than the alternative.” I am certain another 40 year democratically controlled(purchased?) congress would also challenge this notion. Oh well, maybe death and TAXES will not be so “certain” or relevant by then. Until then Mr. Moyers, live long and prosper.

  • Anonymous

    I heard of Bill Moyers for the first time many years ago when he interviewed Joseph Campbell. Thank you Bill (I don’t always agree with you!) for this excellent summation. I will share it with as many people as I can, including my lone congressman.

    Mike

  • Guest

    Narwhals? :-j

  • JonThomas

    Sir, I say this with as gentle a spirit of correction as possible…

    Please, please look up the definition of the political term ‘Republic,’ and that of ‘Democracy.’

    The first paragraph of Wikipedia gives a definition of ‘republic’ as follows….

    “A republic is literally a form of government in which affairs of state are a “public matter” (Latin: res publica), not the private concern of the rulers, in which public offices are subsequently appointed or elected rather than privately accommodated, i.e. through inheritance or divine mandate. In modern times, the common definition of a republic is a government which excludes a monarch.”

    Some Republics do not even have heads of state.

    How the leaders of a nation are determined is the criterion upon which a nation to lay claim to the descriptive title… “Democracy.”

    There are a few different types of Democracies. The U.S. is a ‘Representational Democracy.’ True, It is not a direct Democracy, but none the less, the U.S. IS a Democracy…. It also happens to be a Republic.

    So, as we can see… the term Republic refers to the type of Government, and Democracy refers to the method in which a country determines it’s leaders at any given time.

    There are times when I can be dense, but I have no idea what your simile is supposed to mean. If you were to say that the U.S. is like a young pregnant woman who happens to be both a woman and a teenager, then maybe I could follow your meaning.

    For a stark example just look up the “United States” in Wiki and look at the first paragraph under the heading… “Government and politics….”

    It says… “The United States is the world’s oldest surviving federation. It is a constitutional republic AND* representative democracy, “in which majority rule is tempered by minority rights protected by law.” [*emphasis mine]

    As you can see by the above referenced material, and from the undoubtedly limited knowledge gained from my minor in Political Science, I still would ask my yet unanswered question from my comment above…

    Who, or what group, is it exactly which keeps promoting this untruth?

    To give the reason I keep asking, I’ll add another question… What is the agenda for a group, or a person, to promote such an inaccurate description of U.S. Governmental structure?

    Surely anyone with the slightest knowledge of civics should understand the basic meanings of these terms.

    Such hoodwinking through Historical, and Civics Revisionism could only be perpetuated on an uneducated populace.

    I am forced to wonder why… and, what are the goals of such efforts?

    That leads us back to why no one has yet to answer —”WHO?”

    I shall continue to ask…

  • Anonymous

    IF I am to understand the current manufactured crisis, there are 3 possible resolutions:
    1) Obama caves and acquiesces to major GOP demands in interests of saving the country from economic hardship of a credit default.
    Results: Our Democracy would be forever changed because it would mean that constitutional process and therefore our constitution no longer really matters, because any time a minority wishes to extort ransom it would have a ability to do so, no matter what the results of ordinary constitutional process.
    This seems like a no-brainer- this simply can’t happen if there is anyone out there who loves this country.

    2) GOP caves and ends their self-made crisis:
    Results: Well it seems the crisis may have gone too far for that. GOP would look like fools (if they don’t already?) and get hammered in next elections. Therefore it is becoming harder & harder for them to reverse course. Of course if they were to put their country first and truly perceived the consequences of their actions, they would do the right thing, regardless, but I wouldn’t bet my stock portfolio on it.

    3) We go into default (perhaps Gov remains closed?):
    Results Our economy is damaged severely in ways we can only speculate at the moment.

    Seems like whole charade is a little like Russian Roulette.
    Got stocks?

  • Anonymous

    Shelby, he quotes Rushbo and Fixed News, he can’t read, especially liberal media bias or as most know as the truth or facts, they get in the way of their hate of anything Obama. When the truth is your enemy, then your cause is lost from the start. Some just can’t admit it.

  • JonThomas

    Good analysis, but never discount the ‘Ancient Chinese, (movie based,) Option’… someone, close to the last minute, finds (more than likely over the secret bi-partisan partaking of extremely expensive single malt…) a way of ‘saving face’ – usually through surreptitious serendipity and presented by one of the next chosen ‘darlings’.

    Hopefully such carefully planned…err…ehm… brainstorming, will exclude, by way of a snub, the ignorant up-starts who caused this mess.

  • B. Erle Hollingsworth

    Thank you Jay. Your words make more sense than anything else I’ve read on this website, including Mr. Moyer’s essay. Thanks for the honest and rational description of what has actually transpired.

  • Anonymous

    Canada can spend less on their military with the US as their neighbor. Since they are about the nicest people on the planet I don’t think anyone would attack them, but if someone did, you know the US would treat Canada as its own. It is similar for Europe and Japan. They can spend much less on military expenditures as they rely on the US.

  • Anonymous

    OK. I agree with them. Defund Obama care. The house bills to repeal Obama care were also squashed by the senate.

  • Anonymous

    To me it depends on your definition of democracy. A democracy is the concept of one man one vote. In other words its two wolves and a sheep voting on what’s for dinner. We are not a majority rules government. We are supposed to be a representative government limited in action by the framework of the constitution.

  • Anonymous

    The constitution does not guarantee equality of outcome. The good lord made us with different talents, abilities, drives, etc. We are all equal in the sense we all have the same God given rights. The constitution does not grant those rights, it states that government cannot take them away. The right to property is a principle one.

    To provide equality of outcome, that means you are using the force of law to take someone’s property and give it to another. The liberal premise is that the money you and I earn is not really ours. It belongs to everyone and we need the government to decide how this is allocated. I fundamentally disagree with this mentality. The money I earn is my property to do with as I see fit. I have the right to choose where I spend my money, what charities I support and so on.

    Regardless of the reason, you do not have the right to stick your hand in my wallet.

    I can agree that as a civil society we need some sort of safety net. There are people that cannot provide for themselves through no fault of their own. However, when government establishes systems to help people, the systems themselves are self perpetuating. They are by design created to expand their roles instead of giving people a helping hand to allow them to become self sufficient again.

    The general welfare clause has been twisted to mean anything and everything. The moral imperative is to justify to the individual why it is more important for you to have my money than it is for me, the person that earn it to have it.

  • Anonymous

    Jon…my point is that the current obamacare law was intentionally written the way it was written in order to nudge out the private sector from health care and thus make people more dependent on government. At some point, people will become so frustrated and no private options will remain and thus we will be forced into single payer. I cannot quote you chapter and verse on this, but several prominent democrats stated this as an objective.

  • Anonymous

    .

  • Anonymous

    divine intervention would be helpful.
    Perhaps Dems need throw in some coupons from Chuck E Cheese?

  • Anonymous

    Apparrently GOP truly do hate government.
    They certainly seem to hate governance.
    And constitution
    And our country in general.
    Seems like breaking from Britain may have not been that good an idea after all.

  • Anonymous

    That’s because those bills will never pass. The senate opposes them. And if they somehow passed the senate, the President will veto them.

    If you think the Affordable Care Act should be destroyed, vote for a Republican president in 2016. It will not be canceled while a Democratic president is in office.

  • Carl Gottstein

    HA HA Where do I get my check?

  • Carl Gottstein

    It is about being force fed redistribution. If you don’t like Obama care it is because it is taking money from you pocket and taking away your choices. If you don’t like Obama care it is because you support the TEA Party idea of less government. Obama care is the opposite of that ideal. It is a partisan leftist power grab that had ZERO gop support. Well lefty, you passed it without republican votes? Pay for it without Republican votes.

  • Carl Gottstein

    It is about We The Peoples Representatives duly elected, rejecting in our name, US being force fed redistribution. If you don’t like Obama care
    it is because it is taking money from you pocket and taking away your
    choices. If you don’t like Obama care it is because you support the TEA
    Party idea of less government. Obama care is the opposite of that ideal.
    It is a partisan leftist power grab that had ZERO gop support. Well lefty, you passed it without republican votes? Now Pay for it without Republican votes.

  • Flipper44

    Look at China and South Korea. It seems they are becoming stronger allies than the U.S. was with South Korea. The Chinese President, thankfully, helped Russia block us from invading Syria on false pretenses.

    I agree that China should not peg its Yuan to the dollar, nor should it hold over 1 trillion in U.S. debt. The bond holdings are a pittance for China….Just 1000 per citizen. But it gives them unfair leverage.

    Bush once stated after 9/11 that if Americans understood what his group was really doing to Americans, they’d string ‘em all up from the nearest lamppost.

    The economic assault on the U.S. started in 2001, and it has been merciless hit after hit. I know Bill Moyers does not believe 9/11 could have been self inflicted, but the other economic damages certainly were, and I would argue, so was 9/11. (Of course 9/11 was for foreign resources, foreign land and homeland austerity)

    After the beginning of the Iraq war, China temporarily agreed to remove its peg from the dollar. China put it back after our self-inflicted Lehman crisis and mortgage crisis. This is because we were making headway toward an equal exchange rate. In 2010, we once again were able to force China to remove the peg, but now they are instituting it indirectly by investing in international currencies outside the dollar, and those countries are keeping their currencies down by buying U.S. Bonds.

    The U.S. is not happy. Consequently, we are once again hurting our economy to make our dollar and labor force cheaper. Or so the theory goes.

  • JonThomas

    Nudge out the private sector?

    You know, we could probably go on, and on for a very long time while not getting anywhere in a discussion. You do however, seem sincere in your beliefs.

    Yes, I do know that is has been suggested that the ACA is a first step to Universal Healthcare, my comment was just exposing a politician’s promise for what it is…an opportunity to appease their base and nothing more.

    I am curious, would you detail for me exactly in what way the ACA is written to ‘nudge out’ the private sector?

    To me it seems exactly the opposite, it mandates every American to frequent the private sector or face a penalty tax.

    Why wouldn’t private options remain? Even in nations which embrace Socialism, private options remain.

    I’m sorry, statements like the one you made are not trustworthy. They are not based on evidence, but rather such come from fear-promoting opinion. Unfortunately, such statements are said as if they are true.

    If you were to say that ‘YOU worry the ACA will lead to a Socialized system,’ and for some unknown reason ‘the Government will outlaw private insurance’…then maybe I can say…”I disagree, but you can believe as you wish.”

    Since the mandated insurance market place consists of private sector insurance options, you are contradicting yourself.

    If they become frustrated with their insurance, and that insurance is the private insurance found in the ACA market place, you are saying that they are frustrated with the private sector. One the other hand, you are saying that there will be no private sector.

    I’m scratching my head in confusion.

    There is also this concept of making people more dependent on Government tossed into the mix.

    It’s getting thick now.

    When earnestly discussing important subjects, I find it best to discuss one point at a time. Too many points force drawn out heavy comments and many issues get left behind.

    Like this concept of becoming ‘dependent on Government.’ As opposed to what? If we are talking healthcare, my granddad for example, is dependent on Government…and thank goodness!!!

    He otherwise would have died long ago.

    The private sector would never insure him, and with what he has to live on, forget it, he would never be able to afford insurance.

    So, this concept of ‘dependent on Government’ is ridiculous propaganda, again playing on fears, and not based on evidenced reality. It’s pablum to play upon fear-producing inculcated mental conditioning.

    The fact of the matter is that the private sector is the very ones who benefit from the ACA. They pay for campaigns, and play a huge role in who gets chosen for law making positions.

    They lobby heavily, and through groups like ALEC, actually write the laws!

    I realize that you are sincere in your feelings, but I would ask for details, not words with no evidence.

    You should ask for the same from myself or those from whom you get your opinions and information. Thank you.

  • JonThomas

    Ok, just to keep this simple, I get overwhelmed when too many points are presented.

    I didn’t say anything about equality of outcome, nor equality of opportunity.

    I simply showed how Healthcare Reform is indeed within the parameters of the Constitution’s authority and pointed out that such reform, at this time in history, is a much better investment in the security of the nation than defense spending.

    The “general Welfare Clause,’ as you state it, is by necessity, written to be open ended. The idea is just that, to promote the betterment, security of the people.

    The word ‘welfare’ in this context, It has little to do with the safety net. Yet, as contrary as it seems, the safety net has everything to do with the term “Welfare” as it is used in the Constitution.

    I do not wish to discuss ideology in this forum, for many reasons, especially the way you seem to phrase it as liberal vs. (I guess) conservative…real life is more complicated than that myopic construct.

    In any case, the ‘reaching into my wallet’ opinion is not valid. Why? Because any spending that one person wants, another may disagree. It is majority of opinion, and at times unfortunately, the expression of power, which determines what is in the General Welfare.

  • JonThomas

    Done! I’ll take a double with a splash of filtered water please.

  • Jerry Rutschman

    It’s both parties are responsible for this government shutdown. No one can blame the Republicans or the Democrats it’s both parties. Come on guys I’m sure You have more intelligence than to believe is just one party….. There is no question that the debit must be raised I believe the Republicans will been on that when the time comes I sure hope so…..

  • Gail Seaton Humbert

    There is a technique called false equivalency. Continuing claiming that it is both parties fault equally is using that propaganda technique.
    Women who are hit by their husbands are very familiiar with it the police come and say “well you must have done something to provoke him? I takes two you know.”
    Actually it does not. sometimes one person is just unreasonably aggressive in getting their way. Anything goes.
    So let’s not fall into that trap any more. If the evidence keeps mounting – as it has – that the Republicans planned since 2010 and executed this shutdown of democracy – then those are facts. No blame is shared equally for one side’s plot to force their way on to others.
    it is up to people to stop accepting false equivalencies fed to us by what passes for news nowadays “fair and balanced” which isn’t and look at facts.
    This is not democracy anymore with majority rules. this is small cabals driving the rest of us through forces and threat of force.

  • Mike

    You are wrong. Sorry, The Republicans did not plan this shut down. They plan to GET RID OF OBAMA after 2014.

    Do you not see what Obama is doing to this Country?

    I understand wanting to get away from the more traditional style rule that has been going on in this Nation. But to think Obama has brought the answer?

    Obama has done nothing but mount a media campaign to destroy one half of this countries voice!!

    Your very speaking out and blaming the GOP is PROOF of it!!

    The blame for the shut down is the fact that the GOP wanted input into how OUR LIVES will be ran and Obama thinks he can just push a law through as if the GOP would never ever have any power in this Country again!! That is what he did with Obamacare!!

    SURE they had talks when it was being created but Obama and the Liberals ignored and laughed at everything the GOP said and then passed this bill without a single bit of GOP influence. THAT doesn’t happen in this Nation because you have to WORK with the other party. OBama REFUSES!

    In every instance in every law passed the GOP has had to cave. EVERY TIME.

    Pretend that isn’t true. And don’t try to say that Obama allowed the Bush era taxes to continue because the ONLY reason he did that was for his own reelection so he could LIE and say he wasn’t going to raise taxes and every republican in this NATION kept arguing that if you reelect Obama your taxes WILL Go up!! Every Liberal said that was just nonsense and Romney was going to raise taxes. Well, IT WAS AN OBAMA LIE!!

    Seriously, when are the good Democrats of this Nation going to realize that Obama is a fraud!! He lied to you!!

    Obamacare is causing Businesses to cut hours and that just is not propaganda because IT IS HAPPENING!!

    This is getting pathetic that Democrats don’t see Obama for the Anti American Muslim Extremist turned fake political ally of the Democrat party! HE is TELLING You he will do one thing while he is doing another!!

    I had someone tell me I was nuts to think that Obama exempted himself from a law which would make it illegal to arm terrorists because HE VETTED the REBELS in SYRIA!
    WOW, The Government says they vetted a MASSIVE Rebel group made up of MANY factions! NO WAY! He never vetted them!! The NEWS DAILY of those Rebels BUTCHERING Christians in every village to pass through is NOT PROOF THAT THEY ARE GOOD PEOPLE!! DUH!

    Obama is not the answer. ADMIT you made a mistake voting for him and help us END this charade of his!

  • Anonymous

    it’s the governments solution to getting more money for their overspending. How would you like it if your landlord or mortgage holder overspent and just kept raising your rent or mortgage because of it. That would be the same thing and another way to look at it.

  • Anonymous

    why wasn’t the single payer Medicare type insurance done by the democrats who passed the bill and were in control of the house and senate. ? The only reason the bill passed because democrats were in control and yet they didn’t give us the single payer medicare insurance that would serve us all.

  • Anonymous

    After 9-11 when Canada did not want to support our murder of innocents on the other side of the planet millions of Americans wanted to bomb Canada. This was around the time of “Freedom Fries”.

  • JonThomas

    In the gentleness of spirit through which I replied above, I thank you for your amplification.

    It brings me closer to understanding why someone may insist on making the unwarranted distinction between ‘Republic’ and ‘Democracy’ in statements such as that which I commented upon from above…

    “We are not a democracy. We are a constitutional republic…”

    It is important when jumping into a conversation to not take terms and concepts out of context… ESPECIALLY a multi-dimensional political term such as “Democracy”.

    From the original comment in this exchange, it is clear that the context used by “Lee Zaslofsky” is of disenfranchisement.

    I do not wish to speak for Mr. Zaslofsky without due deference, but since he is speaking in his comment directly to Mr. Moyers, his use of ‘Democracy’ harkens back to the first few paragraphs where Mr. Moyers begins…

    “And now to the people who refuse to let democracy work. The people who hate government so much they’ve shut it down. Unable to abide by the results of democracy when they don’t win, they turned on it.

    Republicans have now lost three successive elections to control the Senate and they’ve lost the last two presidential elections. Nonetheless, they fought tooth and nail to kill President Obama’s health care initiative. They lost that fight, but with the corporate wing of Democrats, they managed to bend it toward private interests…”

    Yes, Mr. Zaslofsky is apparently, nay… OBVIOUSLY, using the term “democracy” not in the context of “Direct Democracy”… as in the form of Government which is easy swayed by opinionated factions (as Mr. Madison so eloquently described in your sincere, but misapplied application of Federalist No.10, of 1787,) but rather in the context of Democratic Process. Such political terminology (such as “Democracy”) may indeed at times deserve, and require distinction, but in this case, I again use correction to assert that the distinction was not only unnecessary, but poorly executed.

    The Democratic Process is exactly the manner in which the Republic of the U.S. uses as it’s legislative mechanism.

    It is exactly this process Mr. Moyers contends is being subverted, and to that which Mr. Zaslofsky responds. Further, it is this very weakness of which Mr. Madison warned.

    He, at the time is speaking as to the formation of U.S., and it’s Governmental structure as a whole, but his principles and arguments about the destructive effects of passionate factions are now being shown to be extremely distinct, and accurate in foresight.

    In this case your above quote is very apt as it applies to the U.S. Congress and it’s Democratic Process.

    Thank you for so aptly making our point.

    it is however, completely out of context, and irrelevant to the discussion which was at hand.

    While through disparagement, you belittle my quest for understanding, and enisle my questions into a realm of conspiracy, I find I am one step closer to understanding by whom, and for what reason such irrelevant and inappropriate distinctions are much too often drawn.

    It is laudable that such efforts are put into trying to understand U.S. Governmental structure, but because of such efforts it is becoming clear that there are some who have have not yet grasped the small g from the large G.

    It may sound good to use the Federalist papers when discussing politics, but they are not often applicable when the the context is is neither the writing, nor the re-writing of the Constitution.

    If you got that info from a source or a group, I would be interested in discovering whom it is which is trying to use the Federalist Papers so indiscriminately.

    It seems as if it’s every other week on this and similar forums, and it’s always from people with a similar world view… yes, just like that of your own.

    So, I’ll ask again, is there a group through which you learned to apply (or rather, in this case…misapply) the Republic vs. Democracy argument whenever the varied-definition political term – Democracy – is so enmeshed in the subject?

  • Will

    “There’s nothing that promotes political irresponsibility more than the knowledge that whatever you do the media will blame both sides.”

    Peter Hart
    FAIR TV
    Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting

  • Anonymous

    Way to go Jay .
    I See-So now a precedent is set that every future Congress gets to choose what programs get funded and majority means nothing and Minority rules. A minority ruled government- hey that’s great. Who needs elections?
    Maybe the minority will rule to fund social security and medicare payments only to those who are registered Republicans. THINK OF THE $ THAT WOULD SAVE. (Oops, I better be quiet-they’ll be demanding that next).
    It is totally bazaar to close government and threaten default, unless Dems acquiesce to extortion.
    If Dems acquiesce, governance of this country would changed forever.
    Certainly constitutional process would longer apply, since minority can simply overule it. Therefore constitution, at best, is seriously weakened.

    Now you can laugh and giggle about it. And pretend that you know what the consequences of a credit fault would be as if you know.

    But anyone capable of rational thought, would realize that if President was to go along with such a spit in the face of the constitution and the founding fathers, America will come out of this forever changed- and not for the better.
    Now I fully understand our GOP “leaders” in House of Reps are so much wiser than our founding fathers, that the results of these changes be in the best interests of our country.

    And you’re right of course- if President actually cares about the constitution and the future of the country and therefore does not yield to extortion- why then of course the government shut down, the default and all the short and greater long-term pain is entirely on his shoulders.

    Way to go Jay- drink another cold one for me.

  • Anonymous

    we must be living in different countries. The problem many liberals have with Obama is that he gives in too much to the right(which is often quite extreme and unreasonable),he even goes to the table with a compromise. The Affordable Care Act is already a compromise,we wanted universal health care.

  • Anonymous

    Look at what people are reporting from the policies they are purchasing from the exchanges when they can get on the website. Premiums are increasing, deductibles are increasing. By law, insurers cannot disqualify someone for a pre-existing condition. In theory a person could apply for insurance on the way to the hospital after a car wreck and they could not be denied coverage. That means that the cost for all policies will have to increase to cover this. Many people will choose to pay the fine instead of paying for the reported expensive coverage being offered by the exchanges. Don’t you see this is by design? Its clear to me. The ACA law will force increases in the costs of private insurance premiums to the point where people will be begging for the government to take over. That is what the law was designed to do.

  • Anonymous

    I borrowed this, but I thought it was well said:

    When the Founding Fathers said that “WE THE PEOPLE” established the Constitution to “promote the general Welfare,” they did not mean the federal government would have the power to aid education, build roads, and subsidize business. Likewise, Article 1, Section 8 did not give Congress the right to use tax money for whatever social and economic programs Congress might think would be good for the “general welfare.”

    James Madison stated that the “general welfare” clause was not intended to give Congress an open hand “to exercise every power which may be alleged to be necessary for the common defense or general welfare.” If by the “general welfare,” the Founding Fathers had meant any and all social, economic, or educational programs Congress wanted to create, there would have been no reason to list specific powers of Congress such as establishing courts and maintaining the armed forces. Those powers would simply have been included in one all-encompassing phrase, to “promote the general welfare.”

    John Quincy Adams, sixth President of the United States, once observed: “Our Constitution professedly rests upon the good sense and attachment of the people. This basis, weak as it may appear, has not yet been found to fail.”

    It is NOT the government’s business (constitutionally) to “help” individuals in financial difficulty. Once they undertake to provide those kinds of services, they must do so with limited resources, meaning that some discriminating guidelines must be imposed. (so many who need that kind of help- so little resources to provide it.)

    The Founding Fathers said in the preamble that one reason for establishing the Constitution was to “promote the general welfare.” What they meant was that the Constitution and powers granted to the federal government were not to favor special interest groups or particular classes of people. There were to be no privileged individuals or groups in society. Neither minorities nor the majority was to be favored. Rather, the Constitution would promote the “general welfare” by ensuring a free society where free, self-responsible individuals – rich and poor, bankers and shopkeepers, employers and employees, farmers and blacksmiths – would enjoy “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness,” rights expressed in the Declaration of Independence.

    Quoting the Tenth Amendment, Jefferson wrote: “I consider the foundation of the Constitution as laid on this ground: That ‘all powers not delegated to the United States, by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States or to the people.’ To take a single step beyond the boundaries thus specially drawn around the powers of Congress is to take possession of a boundless field of power, no longer susceptible of any definition.”

    Writing about the “general welfare” clause in 1791, Thomas Jefferson saw the danger of misinterpreting the Constitution. The danger in the hands of Senators and Congressmen was “that of instituting a Congress with power to do whatever would be for the good of the United States; and, as they would be the sole judges of the good or evil, it would be also a power to do whatever evil they please.” Unlike public officials during Jefferson’s time, our modern-day legislators have a very loose interpretation of the Constitution. The result is that government has mushroomed into a monolithic bureaucracy.

    Once the government opens its arms (and bank accounts), it divides the citizens into two groups: those who receive direct (personal, individual) benefit from the government, and those who do not. That is why the founders designed a FEDERAL system of government that provided only for the “GENERAL” (meaning- non-specific) WELFARE of the people by confining its services to things like “national defense” and “interstate commerce”. It leaves to the states the issues of HOW or WHEN other services are provided to specific sub-groups. HOWEVER (This is critical) the new government must represent the BEST INTERESTS of all the people, which logically means that it MUST be limited in scope, for the MORE a government undertakes, the more oppressive it becomes. Government MUST be ANCHORED in fundamental principles (see lecture notes).

    If you advocate for federal spending on social welfare programs, you are describing a redistribution of income (MY income) for the benefit of Specific individual citizens INSTEAD of (for example) a strong national defense. Which of those activities is the government LEGALLY REQUIRED to perform? (hint: Art. I, Sec. 8, U.S. Constitution.)

    If the Federal government MUST do certain things, and something is NOT EXPRESSLY STATED in the constitution as a duty of Federal Government, then HOW (or WHOM) should any other services be provided? (Hint: Tenth Amendment)

  • Anonymous

    I thought it was the French hence changing french fries to freedom fries??

  • JonThomas

    And they said that some people were 3/5 of other people. Sorry, I don’t worship at the alter of the Constitution.

    For all your detailed understanding, these are people who owned slaves which they stole from another land.

    They did not intend their words to last forever. Instead, simply by adding amendments they explicitly provided a practical lesson in the flexibility of the document.

    The Constitution was written as quickly as possible, and then added to after.

    The spirit matters more than the absolute. Most of the writings surrounding the meaning and intent of the Constitution at the time were to convince fellow colonists to stand together behind that specific document and not dither..

    It wasn’t until half a century later that slavery was abolished. Was that in the general Welfare?

    If you follow a strict interpretation of the original document, then today there should still be slaves, and they should only be worth 3/5 of a person.

    That idea was written into the original language, do you worship that idea?

    If you do, and do not believe the Constitution was meant to be flexible, then sorry, you are not reasonable.

    In their day, the Doctors were paid in chickens. An amputation might have cost you a mule.

    A family could pay for a birth with a dozen eggs.

    Sorry, but at this point you have become unreasonable, and are not keeping in mind that the writers, by amending the Constitution, showed definitely that they did not mean for every written iota to be enshrined.

    They knew that times would change, and so would the needs of liberty and the General Welfare.

    Now, I have to drive my donkey to the market to trade my non-gold backed, worthless paper for machine processed, non-home grown foodstuffs, and take care of my Grandfather, who thank goodness for the Government single-payer system, is still alive.

  • susie ables

    As unsettling as the topics Moyers addresses are it is comforting to listen to a voice of reason and knowledge in a sea of radical vehemence. The helplessness and hopelessness of the American people is starting to take on a mob mentality. I, like many want to find a group that has the ability to both unite the disappointed masses and the understanding of political maneuvering to send a potent message to those politicians that are holding our government hostage. The government shut down needs to effect those that have created it They still get their paychecks and their health care along with all the fringe benefits of their position. Like most animals of prey, the American citizens must herd together to stave off the predators. If anyone has an idea for organizing the herd and blocking the predators please let me know.

  • Charles Griffin

    Intolerant and intemperate. Why, Bill, I hardly know ye!

  • Anonymous

    OK Jon….I`ll leave you alone. When liberals pull the race card out you know they have reached the end of their ability to think clearly. You are clearly not a student of history and have little understanding of the 3/5 compromise. Me, I think I will trust the interpretation of the people that wrote the constitution. Thank you for your time.

  • Thomas Paine

    The teabaggers are the modern-day equivalent of Judas Escariot, waiting for their 30 pieces of silver from the Koch Bros.

  • http://www.you-read-it-here-first.com/ John Bailo

    Some people drink Kool-Aid, but you seem to open the packets and pour the powder right down your throat!

    The House of Representatives is the only truly democratically elected body of government!

    It is fighting a Constitutional battle against the aristocratic bodies that are trying to drain the American taxpayers of their liberty. It is the desire of the people that the House do its duty.

  • Anonymous

    Just another source of partisanship and obfuscation.

  • Anonymous

    They love it when people give up or assume defeat.

  • Anonymous

    Our dollar is no longer the go-to international currency standard, so #3 is questionable.

  • Anonymous

    It isn’t that the GOTP hasn’t been capable of bold faced lies and propagandized to their “willing to hear” base. I am sure they can come up with another one to save face.

  • Anonymous

    Single payer didn’t come before Congress because the Democrats didn’t have the votes. Not all Democrats were in favor of single payer.

  • Anonymous

    It was because the Republicans in the Senate filibustered the bill and Democrats did not have sixty votes to end debate…with the exception of a few short months..It was also a compromise that Democrats are better suited for and at one time Republicans understood. It took a full year to get the AHCA passed. It does take both chambers of Congress to pass a bill

  • Anonymous

    A law cannot be nullified by a single chamber of Congress or even both chambers without the consent of the President or by overriding a Presidential veto.

  • Andy Kennedy

    Bill, Please use the word “traitors” when talking about these people.

  • DavidW

    Cooperative Enterprise. Credit Unions, Food Co-ops, Mutual Insurance companies and the like. We need more worker owned cooperative businesses as well. This can be a way to build local economies and take market share away from the corporate overlords. It can stave off the coming economic totalitarianism and keep more of our locally created wealth local. No more big banks, no more walmarts and we get a chance to build our economic democracy to power back up our political democracy.

    Read up on the Rochdale Pioneers from 1844 for some history of the movement…

  • Reef Dancer

    Bwwaahahahaha. You’re funny. The “only democratically elected body.” Oh sure. In gerrymandered districts. Who’s drinking the Koolaid? You are.

  • Anonymous

    I agree. I’m also wondering if there is money from our enemies fueling them. After all, Cruz is leading this and I understand his father was one of Castro’s revolutionaries. The GOP keeps yelling that Obama is “unamerican” but it seems no one is taking a hard look at the GOP leadership and their funding and backers. The “enemy within” being pushed and backed by an “enemy without” perhaps?

  • Michael

    Modern American conservatism derives from one principle: ignorance. The current state of affairs can, in my view, be traced back to what the Republicans “learned” when they employed Lee Atwater to guide the party to victory for Bush, Sr. Newt Gingrich gets credit for being the father of the new Republican strategy of repeating outright lies in the face of
    overwhelming evidence until the lies gain hold by mere virtue of the repetition, but it was actually Atwater who invented this strategy–one that he repudiated on his deathbed. Since the birth of the Atwater strategy, Republican strategy has been all about pure,unalloyed lies, and nothing, not a scintilla of an iota of a soupçon of a notion of, anything else. Behold the fruits of their labors.

  • http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reverbnation.com%2Fc.%2Fa4%2F2341885%2F993458%2FArtist%2F0%2FUser%2Flink&h=b7354 Jeffrey William Lynch

    Dear Mr. Moyers, I admire your work and passions. I have for over 20 years. However, I have to disagree with you on this one.

    When the president refuses to “buckle to the extortion,” as you say, his message becomes more and more like the irresponsible and self serving extreme of the opposite side. When both sides refuse to “buckle,” this current political madness in Washington that resonates throughout the rest of the country and the world for that matter is the result.

    Solving the current problems involves give and take from both sides, and that is the current road block, none of the parties involve are willing to “buckle.”

    There are parts of and hints of another framework for “Orwellian” future legislation mentioned in the Affordable Care Act. That is disturbing to me.

    All the President would have to say, is: “Lets make it better by finding the specific problems and I’ll consider allowing the Congress to revise the law. I am willing to talk.”

    It appears that neither side is willing to do this, and that is the real problem.

  • Anonymous

    Michael, you’re actually right. it takes ignorance to make greed. ignorance must come first. greed is the outcome of ignorance. substance has no place in matter, where greed lives and breathes. substance is in the things not capable of destruction, discord and decay. substance is that which is eternal, intelligence, hopeful, the things not seen.

  • Maria Bierly

    I wonder if it would help or become necessary for all those hopeless and hurt ordinary Americans to take to the streets to march and demonstrate all over the country (like in the Civil Rights fight) to effect a change? – But we will need courageous, energetic leaders to organize such actions. Are they out there?- I think voicing our thoughts of disapproval and frustration on the internet is not enough; these expressions need to be much more visible, in the face of all the public.

  • Anonymous

    BRAVO!

  • Anonymous

    Actually, and I am a Democrat with moderate ideas, the Democrats have seen more benefit from the “gerrymandering” than Th GOP. There are more ‘uncontested’ Democratic districts than Republican. It is not surprising that once it started BOTH sides worked it to the maximum.

  • Anonymous

    The Republicans want the President to “buckle” and he has buckled his belt tighter and decided to ride out the storm. I, for one, hope he takes the full ride to the conclusion.
    The Republicans have attempted ad nauseum to repeal The ACA. Apparently they feel that failing to do so legitimately gives them license to hold the legislation hostage in an “outside the lines” budget battle.
    Now, with their negotiations Thursday, they want the President to agree to “back off” in order to have them do EXACTLY what they have already had months to do… form a conference committee and negotiate a federal budget from the two budgets passed by The House and The Senate. To date they have refused to name a conference committee let alone negotiate on the budget( which, in case, they haven’t noticed the Senate has presented a version that is close, in total dollars, to what the Republicans are asking for in theirs).
    So I ask you, Jeffrey, who is holding out their hand and who is, simply, “holding out”?

  • Mark Robinette

    While it may or may not be true that Dems have more gerrymandered districts than GOP the mere actions of the Tea Party show that the GOP lost control over their dog and now run in fear from it. The Dems do not work to destroy but to build a more Civilized Society.

  • Anonymous

    I agree, SinglePayer, and further contend that the overwhelming reason for this latest fiasco is not The ACA, The Sequester nor The Federal Budget. It is President Obama. McConnell failed to make him a one term President as was his clearly stated goal. I base this on the initial vehemence in the contention during the Continuing Resolution debate that The ACA HAD to be defunded. Yet, in their latest negotiations ( including those with the President yesterday) The ACA has barely been mentioned at all. Having failed to discredit The President using that tact they switched mounts for a new pursuit.

  • Anonymous

    In the back of my mind, I have had a thought that was so outlandish that I nearly dismissed it. Could the Radical wing of the Republicans be edging the American public toward just what you are describing, Maria? That they can ignite a peaceful protest and then react with “inflammatory” responses is not out of the question in my mind. Since a congressman stood and yelled, “You lie!”, at the President during his State of the Union speech outlandish responses have become more common.
    I know it sounds paranoid and ridiculous. Then I think about the current stance and action taken by Republican controlled states on union representation, voter registration, women’s health care and abortion. I look at the states that have refused to take advantage of the Federal Government offering to basically take over the cost of an expansion to their state’s Medicare program. They are mostly Southern, Republican and have Right leaning Governors. That many of them are among the states with the highest number of uninsured citizens is just mind boggling to me. I am not an alarmist and I am not attempting to influence anyone’s opinions … just thinking , if not out loud, at least in public. Are they purposely igniting protest against their own stances? And, if they are, why?

  • Anonymous

    Pray tell… what in their recent behavior has led to your belief that they will do the right thing in the end?

  • Anonymous

    The same arguments could be used against defunding the Never-ending War on Terra, or the War on Drugs. If it’s bad, corporate-lobbyist-written legislation which provides a windfall of taxpayer dollars for the bloated insurance industry, why should it be funded and thus inflicted on the American public? Why are people so willing to screw themselves?

  • http://twitter.com/devans00 devans00

    Sadly I doubt that the majority in Congress has the stomach to fight the Republican Party assault on democracy. Congress people in general are more focused on their personal short term gains and political personal seat.

    They have lost sight of their role to be guardians of the USA. Or did were the Congress not informed that’s what Americans and the world expect of them?

  • http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reverbnation.com%2Fc.%2Fa4%2F2341885%2F993458%2FArtist%2F0%2FUser%2Flink&h=b7354 Jeffrey William Lynch

    It’s rather ironic, while discussing this very issue on Facebook, I got a message from my aunt in Cincinnati about an hour ago. She said those exact same words, “We don’t negotiate with terrorists!”

    I wonder if that’s just a coincidence?

    Both sides have their best PR wizards behind the curtain like the wizards of Oz, thinking of ways to manipulate the mind of the public.

    This is a classic example. I wonder what would have happened if the U.S. government would have sat down and talked to Ho Chi Minh, when he tried to convince the American delegation to speak out for the cause of the Indo-Chinese people, prior to turning to communism and the start of the Viet Nam war. Who was successful with that one?

  • a good life

    Jeff- you are the one poster on here that I see has some common sense– All have to have some give and take and anyone with 1/2 of a mind can see that Obamacare is not a workable program at this time — even the website does not work. We all need to get over the entire Rep/Dem thing and work to get something that has been read and reviewed and will work without throwing the whole US under the train…

  • http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reverbnation.com%2Fc.%2Fa4%2F2341885%2F993458%2FArtist%2F0%2FUser%2Flink&h=b7354 Jeffrey William Lynch

    Thank you Mr. or Ms. Moderator, for allowing my response to be posted. I was beginning to doubt that you would after the wait.. Unlike FOX News, you are fair and balanced.. It is good to listen to all sides..

  • http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reverbnation.com%2Fc.%2Fa4%2F2341885%2F993458%2FArtist%2F0%2FUser%2Flink&h=b7354 Jeffrey William Lynch

    Perhaps you are right, after all the younger Ho wasn’t considered a “terrorist” at the time…

  • minisota

    Listened to NPR lately? 1200 Scientists can’t go to Antarctica to continue their experiments? SO many “hidden” aspects supported by gov’t are on hold and maybe much work will have to be scrapped.
    This is abominable. Just do a clear vote and cut the crap!

  • Mona

    i am reminded of your Reed interview – how a man can do things behind a corporate face that he would not do if he were face to face with an individual. i do not understand people lauding him for his abilities to make a large amount of money while hurting the average man. it reminds me of nazi germany – the populace knew but went along with what was going on. maybe we need to personalize the pain, have them see it face to face, and bring it home to the powers that be so to speak.

  • Arthur Henry Gunther III

    Yes, Bill Moyers, it is the heavy money of special interest that is behind all this, pulling the strings of the talking heads as puppeteers who are bent on deeply altering American society until little of the troublesome (in their view) middle class remains. Short-term, extraordinary profit is sought without a whit of social responsibility for this great nation. The people must rebel, somehow. Thank you for your relentless leadership on this usurpation of democracy.

  • Anonymous

    I am sorry, Jeffrey, but the partial quote game only works with those who don’t search out the quoted section. Here is the actual language of the Bill which precedes your note and says that it is “implantable devices” that will be chipped.”H.R. 3590 amends Section 519 of the Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act (21 U.S.C .360i). Here is the applicable language from H.R. 3590 (page 1,014):

    (g)(1)The Secretary shall establish a national medical device registry (in this subsection referred to as the ‘registry’) to facilitate analysis of postmarket safety and outcomes data on each device that—
    (A) is or has been used in or on a patient; and
    (B) is—
    (i) a class III device; or
    (ii) a class II device that is implantable, life-supporting, or life-sustaining.

    (2) In developing the registry, the Secretary shall, in consultation with the Commissioner of Food and Drugs, the Administrator of the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services, the head of the Office of the National Coordinator for Health Information Technology, and the Secretary of Veterans Affairs, determine the best methods for—

    (A) including in the registry, in a manner consistent with subsection (f), appropriate information to identify each device described in paragraph (1) by type, model, and serial number or other unique identifier;

    (B) validating methods for analyzing patient safety and outcomes data from multiple sources and for linking such data with the information included in the registry as described in subparagraph (A), including, to the extent feasible, use of—
    (i) data provided to the Secretary under other provisions of this chapter; and
    (ii) information from public and private sources identified under paragraph (3);

    (C) integrating the activities described in this subsection with—
    (i) activities under paragraph (3) of section 505(k) (relating to active postmarket risk identification);
    (ii) activities under paragraph (4) of section 505(k) (relating to advanced analysis of drug safety data); and
    (iii) other postmarket device surveillance activities of the Secretary authorized by this chapter; and…

    3(B) In this paragraph, the term ‘data’ refers to information respecting a device described in paragraph (1), including claims data, patient survey data, standardized analytic files that allow for the pooling and analysis of data from disparate data environments, electronic health records, and any other data deemed appropriate by the Secretary.”
    I appreciate your comments and point of view but let’s keep it all clear and above board for everyone here.

  • http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reverbnation.com%2Fc.%2Fa4%2F2341885%2F993458%2FArtist%2F0%2FUser%2Flink&h=b7354 Jeffrey William Lynch

    Yes, I have read the entire quote. Allow me to explain.

    I selected the partial quote to be concise instead of
    writing the way most modern day government writing is handled. This particular portion is a key to
    understanding the truth:

    “(ii) a class II device that is implantable, life-supporting, or life-sustaining.”

    This can be interpreted in several ways:

    A good lawyer may be able to clarify it. It could mean a
    single device that is implantable, Life-supporting, or life-sustaining, such as
    a pace maker or insulin pump.

    It could also cover a RFID chip which is clarified in FDA documents, and listed as a class II device.

    This legislative document was purposefully written in a vague yet confusing style.

    The real smoking
    gun is from the official Obamacare website, that I quoted and is far more
    revealing to the reader as to the truth of the matter.

    If my hypothesis wasn’t true, why would they write that note about establishing the initial framework for future legislation and regulation,
    if they were not planning to do so?

    Just in case you missed it, let me repeat the bend over,
    here it comes clause with another partial quote:

    “While the bill does not require mandatory RFID
    microchip implantation, it does establish an initial framework where the scope
    could be expanded with future legislation and regulation.”

  • http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reverbnation.com%2Fc.%2Fa4%2F2341885%2F993458%2FArtist%2F0%2FUser%2Flink&h=b7354 Jeffrey William Lynch

    Aaron, believe it or not we agree on many of your thoughts. Something to consider: A story in the NYTimes last week pointed out how many poor Americans are being hurt by this law, myself included. I cannot afford 100 dollars a month for insurance. I can’t even afford 25 dollars a month. I barely made my rent payment on the first. I am not alone. Many Americans are living pay check to pay check.

    I have a good friend who has been working full time at Wendy’s for 4 years now and she is a good worker. She makes a little more than min. wage.

    Two weeks ago her boss called her into the office and told her he had to cut her hours back to below 30 hours, due to this law.

    She is scared to death and is trying to find another part time job.

    So let’s skip the “terrorist” rhetoric and talk about reality.

    Is that a better response for you?

  • FRAK

    All the members of Congress should be required to make their budgets including all sources of income, contributons, gifts and all expenditures public.This would go a long way to eliminating the “do as we say, not as we do” attitude and expose all of their fraud and waste; all of the friends and relatives on their payroll, excessive travel and office expenses. The “fact finding” trips paid for by special interests should also be made public. I think that the public would be outraged if they knew what these members of Congress cost us, all of the percs they get and how they are spending the taxpayers money. Essentially they should be held to the same ethical requirements as all other Federal employees and should get the same benefits and health and retirement plans as other Federal employees. Finally the revolving door to becoming a lobbyist after short times in congress should be stopped

  • Anonymous

    It cannot be denied the health care law passed, has been upheld, and the Republicans have not been able to convince enough people that their view is correct and the law should be repealed. Instead, a majority that controls one of the two houses of our federal legislature is refusing to fund the government unless the other house and the elected president agree to give them what they couldn’t get at the ballot box or in the Supreme Court. That is not democracy and that is not how this government was designed to work, nor has it worked that way until the advent of Newt Gingrich. It is nothing but antidemocratic (small “d”) blackmail and we’re all going to suffer for it.

  • Anonymous

    No, I din’t miss it. It is referring to the implantable device which is the only thing that is referred to anywhere in the legislation.
    I will agree to disagree with you.

  • Anonymous

    They can’t afford to do it.

  • Dave Dube

    Who is paying for the Secret Service protection of Valerie Jarrett while the government is shut down? As a matter of fact, who is paying Valerie Jarrett?

  • Anonymous

    If I pull a gun on you and threaten to shoot you, then you have the right to kill me. The Republicans drew first. Do not compare the President’s reaction to the Republicans’ threats as equal. It is not the same.
    The Republicans, whether Tea Party or not, shut down the government.

  • Anonymous

    The best response is that this is a start of what should be a human right – and certainly a right in this ‘developed’ nation – universal health care. Really, just stand with the thought that you or a vulnerable family member or friend are sick — but cannot afford or have no access to health care. Just SIT with that. You or they are in (preventable, but eventually acute) pain, will die, will greatly suffer without health care.
    We need single payer universal health care – to cut health care costs and improve health (the diabesity epidemic to start with) so that this Nation can fall no further into decline! This ACA is a start — and a threat to the 1% and corporate power because it is about People Power and human welfare. And it curtails obscene profits off of people’s misery – on the part of Big Pharma, Insurance companies, Wall Street, unscrupulous doctors and so on. Maybe some of that money can go into research to PREVENT human suffering and illness and how to have a more cost-efficient way of meeting needs – that is not ALL about money and profit.
    What sort of ignorant or uncaring monsters don’t understand that this is about human vulnerability and despair, as well as about SANE economics – vs. obscene profits and immoral denial of health care and a foolish way of not doing prevention and scientific research?
    Is THIS a better answer for you (more about the sanctity of Life, about real economics, real power and Democracy)?

  • keg1901

    Our
    system allows for sabotage such as we have just experienced at the
    hands of the Tea Party. It doesn’t matter who sabotages it, fact is,
    it should NOT happen. Yet it does, time and again, leaving the USA to
    be the laughing stock of the rest of the world, because we, the leaders
    of the free world, are demonstrating a weakness in our democratic
    process that will eventually bring us to our knees. Time to UPGRADE.

  • http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reverbnation.com%2Fc.%2Fa4%2F2341885%2F993458%2FArtist%2F0%2FUser%2Flink&h=b7354 Jeffrey William Lynch

    To: whoever you are,

    We are not living in a Democracy, (big D or little d), that is the Grand illusion.

    If we were a true democracy, a small minority would not be able to destroy the will of the majority.

    A true democracy encompasses social, economic and cultural conditions that enable the free and equal practice of political self-determination for every member of that society.

    America has become a Plutocracy, ” a system ruled and dominated by the small minority of the top wealthiest citizens.”

    This group of elite individuals have successfully twisted all the rules and most of the laws to benefit themselves.

    If we were living in a democracy, I should not have to be forced to purchase something that:

    1. I cannot afford and,
    2. a product that I feel is not adequate and will not satisfy my needs as I see them.

    Law or no law, this is not democracy, it is a twisted form of totalitarianism, disguised as something that will benefit us all.

    It is very similar to the concept used by the mafia when they came to a business in the past, and told the business owners, you need to pay us for our protection.

    The mafia bosses have moved out of that realm and their applied philosophy now is being implemented and used to run the insurance industry, who I might add are some of the most profitable corporations in this country.

    The large Corporations own Congress and the President. Our leaders are bought and paid for. Those who own them have figured it all out.

    Now, here we are being forced to support their agenda, increase their profit margins…

  • http://absurdlypointless.blogspot.com/ TBJ

    I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. – Thomas Jefferson

  • Taylor Gregg

    Sorry Jeffrey but you don’t understand the problem. The law says the only way you can repeal a law is with votes. If you don’t have the votes, then there is no legal way to repeal. There is nothing to negotiate here. Hostage taking is grounds for impeachment of congress.

  • Last Eye of Odin

    they’re not trying to screw themselves, they’re screwing the whole world. the reason is MONEY. POWER. HATRED. EGO. FEAR.

  • http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reverbnation.com%2Fc.%2Fa4%2F2341885%2F993458%2FArtist%2F0%2FUser%2Flink&h=b7354 Jeffrey William Lynch

    So if we can somehow convince Congress to impeach themselves: Problem solved! There would be no need to hold elections anymore.

    This morning another fellow responded to another one of my responses below and apparently the moderator didn’t feel his response was appropriate and it was not published. Thank God I was able to read it.

    The man was not very happy with my way of thinking and was talking about guns and shooting people.

    He presented a scenario in his response that is somewhat indicative of our society in general.

    We are living in a state of perpetual fear.

    He wrote in his response, “If
    I pull a gun on you, and threaten to shoot you, then you have the right to kill me”.

    I wish I could have responded to his comment. (If you are still reading the comments on this site, here is my response):

    That my friend is the true essence of the problem. Our society has evolved into one that says: If you do not do as we tell you, we are
    going to shoot you. You accept my way or you are going to die!

    If someone comes into my little store and pulls a gun on me and threatens to shoot me, I would first try to talk to the disturbed person
    and find out what’s led them to this extreme. If I can help them, I will.

    At the same time, I would be moving towards them and would be thinking of ways to disarm them without either one of us being shot.

    The unseen forces that manipulate our society have somehow conditioned us to think that my way of thinking is insane. How did that happen?

    Think about the big picture, and where we are heading….

  • http://gaiabrain.blogspot.com/ John Champagne

    Is anyone ready for a paradigm shift yet?

    Here is a cure for what ails the planet… But that is an outlandish claim, so please let me know if you think it has errors or false assumptions that would prevent it working.

    http://gaiabrain.blogspot.com

    What ails the planet is extreme poverty and disparity of wealth AND depletion of resources and environmental degradation at a pace that will lead to a collapse of civilization. Equal (or equitable) sharing of natural wealth offers a solution.

  • http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reverbnation.com%2Fc.%2Fa4%2F2341885%2F993458%2FArtist%2F0%2FUser%2Flink&h=b7354 Jeffrey William Lynch

    Ahh, there it is.. Thanks for allowing everyone to discuss the matter openly. Was beginning to wonder.. Please see my response above.. Republican Sen. John McCain had said on TV exactly what you are saying.

  • http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reverbnation.com%2Fc.%2Fa4%2F2341885%2F993458%2FArtist%2F0%2FUser%2Flink&h=b7354 Jeffrey William Lynch

    Very nice response!

  • http://gaiabrain.blogspot.com/ John Champagne

    Imagine an alternative funding mechanism where each person controls a small fragment of the overall public funds. We could use a system of random surveys to ensure that the programs funded reflected widespread agreement that they were promoting the public interest. (A random survey may show that most people feel that 2/3 of the people saying that a particular program or police department is in fact promoting the public interest is a strong enough but not too strict criterion for qualifying for public funds. Then individuals would be free to choose to put their share of the public funds into that program or department. The same or a different survey may show that most people feel that if 50% of people say something is a good public program AND if an individual want to match their own funds to the contribution, then they may choose to put part of their share of the public funds toward that program. We could have a kind of sliding scale for what we might spend our share of public funds on, depending if we were willing to put some of our own money toward the effort, but potentially also depending on how much our choices for how to spend public funds matched others opinions. For example, if we spend 90% of our share of public funds on programs and services that 98% of the people agree serve the public interest, we might allow spending of the remainder in a way that only 50% of the people agree serves the public interest. Random surveys could readily be applied to find the sliding scales that felt about right to most people.)

    “… The amount of money collected through fees on the putting of pollution and the taking and degrading of resources would be substantial. We may not be able to afford such a system and the current system of taxes on income and sales. We may want to eliminate those taxes, or reduce them to negligible levels… We could fund community services from our ‘accounting for externalities’ fees. The monies collected could be shared among all people equally. We could each spend an agreed-upon fraction (perhaps half) on community needs (e.g.: libraries, schools, public health, police and fire protection, etc.) and spend the remainder on our own personal needs. We would all share in creating the kind of environment that we would choose. We would share, in a more direct and obvious way, decisions about what our community priorities should be. And no one would live in abject poverty.”

    from: Minimum Wage vs. Minimum Income:
    http://gaiabrain.blogspot.com/2012/09/equal-ownership-of-natural-resource.html

  • Anonymous

    The tea party IS the John Birch society. After all, the tea party is funded by the Koch brothers, whose father was one of the John Birch society’s co-founders. The “working people” members of the tea party are just tools of the wealthy funders to be manipulated for the benefit of the wealthy. If you look at what the John Birch society advocates, it is essentially the same thing as the KKK. They are happy that the government is shut down because they want people to starve.

  • Anonymous

    Wrong. The actual text is as follows, per the Monticello web site:

    “if we can but prevent the government from wasting the labours of the people, under the pretence of taking care of them, they must become happy.” – Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Cooper, November 29, 1802[1]

    Shame on you.

  • Anonymous

    Upgrade to what? And no, the Democrats have NEVER threatened a default. What nonsense is this?

  • MAC

    Amazing what a difference a few commas make, right?

  • Anonymous

    I admire your desire to help the deranged gunman. I do not think I would be so generous. Force understands force. If not met with force, it prevails. We think this way because it has been our experience. We do not reward force when it tries to prevail against our will. We resist it or run away. That is natural – fight or flight. Politics is a force of nature. The rules apply and if you yield to force, you lose. I do not think losing is one of the Presidents options. It certainly would not be mine.

  • C. Ross Croulet

    Bill Moyers is so prescient. At the heart of this vicious effort of the Republicans is the fact that they cannot stand the fact that the U.S. is becoming more diverse ethnically, fulfilling the dreams of our Founding Fathers as when the racailly diverse Barack Obama got elected tothe U.S. presidency twice. The fact that they want to overthrow settled law in the ACA by bringing down the whole country means nothing as long as it is purified of getting the Obama interloper out of the White House, if not castrating him politcially.

  • Anonymous

    The people of the United States ought to be able to recognize fascism when they see it. We already fully understamd the Koch family–three generations of fascism–in caps. My family was called upon to defeat fascism, and we did one helluva job–as did many others. Our fascists aren’t sporting swatikas; they’re not members of the cult of the samurai. Our fascists wear Armani–they spill our blood, steal our treasure and blame school teachers. Every single member of Congress who swore allegiance to Koch Industries over and above their oath of office should be removed from office–by force if necessary.

  • Kathy Collins Hurt

    Research Cruz father’s mega church and what they really believe about themselves and others!

  • Anonymous

    We are in the grip of fascism. If anyone in media bothered to read the pamphlets and positions of the John Birch Society we would know that we are in the grip of fascism. Please recall the Koch brothers father Fred founded the John Birch Society. Please remember that the Koch brothers great uncle ran Buchenwald death camp. This is the family to whom our Congress signed loyalty oaths–the John Birch Society has accomplished precisely what it set out to do. Happy?

  • MaryAlice

    I can’t afford to watch this. I live in an area not well served by the internet and regular usage costs about $100 a month. Add that to high phone, email service, TV and it means I’d like to read his comments, as it is less expensive.

  • Sylvia Iverson

    The same Taxpayers who are paying the Republican House of Representatives who shut down the Government because they don’t like the Affordable Care Act…. and yet, with millions of federal workers furloughed without pay, they claim their immunity to the same because of the 27th Amendment deeming themselves “necessary personnel” – Get REAL!

  • Anonymous

    Obama will negotiate with no more success than did Chamberlain with the Nazis.

  • Anonymous

    The president has said exactly that and done exactly that. Where have you been?

  • Bob Moneyymaker

    New Solution: All politicians must be required to say:”I can’t take your money unless you are eligible to vote in my District.”
    Get special interest money out of elections or we’ll never put things a’right. Read what has to happen:…

    Do you see any “unintended consequences?

  • http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reverbnation.com%2Fc.%2Fa4%2F2341885%2F993458%2FArtist%2F0%2FUser%2Flink&h=b7354 Jeffrey William Lynch

    This is the first I heard of this and it came out only 23 hours ago, after I made the original post. Thank God he is willing to make a deal. This is what we need. Common Sense at last…

    Obama tells Senate GOP he’s willing to talk ObamaCare changes

    By Peter Schroeder and Bernie Becker
    -

    10/11/13 03:14 PM ET

    Read more: http://thehill.com/blogs/on-the-money/budget/328107-obama-tells-senate-republicans-hes-willing-to-talk-obamacare#ixzz2hXP6wi28

    Follow us: @thehill on Twitter | TheHill on Facebook

  • Anonymous

    Precisely.

  • http://www.facebook.com/RPManke.solar RevPhil Manke

    Great and on the “money”? TY, Pamela Forester.

  • Anonymous

    My family came to these shores and became Americans in the mid-1600′s. Save the first Gulf War, Vietnam, and the War of 1812, our line has spilled blood in every American conflict.

    Their descendants, myself and the family members I know and am close to, would happily sign our names to your comment in support of it’s veracity .

    Your comment is accurate, and your suggested course of action righteous, reasonable, and entirely justified.

    Well said – 100% agreement and solidarity.

    The wealthy paymasters behind the “tea party” may have co-opted our national symbols and obscured their meaning, but there are still a vast number of us out here that hold true to the spirit of the founding vision.

    They tread on us perpetually, but their actions and intent cannot be masked forever. Eventually, with hard work and hard conversations, the self-serving class war that inspires every one of their schemes and deceptions will be revealed to enough Americans to have an impact.

    Of the People….By the People… For the People.

  • http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reverbnation.com%2Fc.%2Fa4%2F2341885%2F993458%2FArtist%2F0%2FUser%2Flink&h=b7354 Jeffrey William Lynch

    The only problem that I see, (according to the article about the negotiations), is the Republicans and the President are only talking about changes in taxing the medical devices.

    Not a word about the frame work in place or to re-think the idea of implanting the RFID chip in every American that signs up for the plan, or to make it voluntary, not mandatory.

    But at least the President made the offer to discuss the matter. That’s a start.

  • Peak Everything

    You’re not wrong, yet this is still prelude to Caesar.

    We’re done.

  • Anonymous

    Thanks for sharing the Truth Bill!

  • Anonymous

    There is a statute in the U.S. Code that does apply to the Koch brothers and every other conservative that spent the past three years attempting to prohibit implementation of the Affordable Care Act and it is a legitimate and actionable offense the DOJ can prosecute with extreme prejudice. In 18 USC § 2384 – Seditious conspiracy, it plainly says; “If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspires to oppose the authority of, or prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.” For the Americans affected by the government shut down, and those who live in Republican states that rejected free Medicaid expansion written in the Affordable Care Act, it is highly likely they would support fining and imprisoning the Koch brothers for twenty years.

    The U.S. Code says “if two or more persons” are involved in a conspiracy to oppose the authority of, prevent, hinder, or delay any law they shall be punished and that means that every single Republican, teabagger, conservative media, and libertarian belief tank is in line to be prosecuted for seditious conspiracy by the Department of Justice. Every Republican in the House that voted to tie defunding the Affordable Care Act is part of the conspiracy, and that also applies to Republicans who voted in lockstep to prevent the law’s implementation by tying defunding the law to passing a continuing resolution to open the government.

    Republicans in leadership positions in the House and Senate are particularly culpable for preventing the law’s enactment and not because they wasted taxpayer time and money voting over forty times to repeal the law, but because their propaganda, lies, and misinformation incited hostility in the states to oppose the authority of the law. In states such as Arizona, Alabama, Oklahoma, Texas, Wyoming, and Missouri Republicans refused to enforce the law, and after the general election at least three Republican states voted to arrest any federal official who tried to implement the law making them part of the seditious conspiracy as much as the Koch brothers who paid hundreds-of-millions to hinder the law’s implementation. One former Republican, Joe Walsh (R-IL) actually went so far as to provoke his supporters to “defy and or break the law” if faced with what he called “restrictions” in the federal health law. Three GOP-controlled states openly voted to “nullify” the law in typical Confederate fashion.

  • Michael Weber

    Only a thought but we could take a page out of the OCCUPY playbook and occupy the House and pack it full of pissed off voters. Or the Civil Rights movement of the Sixties who marched on Washington. Anyone have enough juice to organize such an event? How about contacting each of our Democrat Senate and State Representatives. Bill how about it? I’d be willing to spend my last dime to get there.

  • Michael Weber

    Brilliant, I have sent this to WH and both my State Senators. How do you make it go viral.

  • DeeDee

    lol..the truth? You honestly think the propaganda machine tells you the truth. You’re a lemming if you do.

  • Micheal Planck

    There is a legislative process. The Republicans used the legislative process to fight Obamacare. They lost. They lost at the ballot box, in the courts, and in the halls of Congress.

    Now they have resorted to extortion. It is extortion, not negotiation, for one simple fact: the Republicans want the government opened too. Both sides agree that closing the government and a debt default are bad; both sides agree it needs to be fixed as soon as possible. But the Republicans are willing to do the thing they identify as “bad” as long as it gets them what they want. This is extortion.

    The President is perfectly willing to talk once the hostages are released. The President is perfectly willing to work through normal legislative channels. The Republicans are not, because they have lost, over and over again, and they know they will keep losing through normal legislative channels. So they are willing to destroy those channels.

    If you see Orwell in the ACA, you need to renew your eyeglass prescription. Every other civilized country has had national health care for decades. Do you think Australia is an Orwellian nightmare? Do you think Sweden lacks freedom? Do you think the Swiss, who are so conservative they didn’t even let women vote until 1976, have surrendered to the Marxist Programme?

  • Micheal Planck

    The reason no one is re-thinking the plan to implant RFID chips in every American is because that plan exists only inside your head.

    You do realize that American already has three national health care schemes, right? One for old people (Medicare), one for poor people (Medicaid), and one for the military (Tri Care). What we are talking about is giving these same benefits to all Americans, not just old, poor, or military ones.

    Where does RFID chips or Orwell come into that?

  • http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reverbnation.com%2Fc.%2Fa4%2F2341885%2F993458%2FArtist%2F0%2FUser%2Flink&h=b7354 Jeffrey William Lynch

    Dear Micheal,

    I don’t wear eye glasses, I have 20/20 vision. The main problem I have with the ACA is that, first of all, I am being forced by the government to purchase something that I do not want. I feel that this new law is a form of extortion of the American people on a mass level.

    Yes, I know all the details of how we got to this point. Yes, I know it is the law. You forgot to mention the part of how the Supreme Court over the last 10 or so years has been stacked to favor the agenda of the wealthy few that run this country, and I am not talking about the President.

    The Insurance industry is already one of the most profitable sectors in America and now with this mandated law, the profits will be even greater.

    My second major objection is: I can’t afford it, like most working poor people in the country. So when I refuse to pay, because I do not have the money, what is the consequence? I am fined for being poor! Sure sounds like a good socialized medicine plan to me.

    I’m not even going to get into the framework for the RFID micro chip implant that is coming next.

    This “law” that you so gallantly defend, is a complete illusion. It is not about providing affordable health care for everyone. It is a very well thought out plan to gradually control the masses.

    The New World Order is for real and this is just the first act of a three act play, and most people are fooled, not knowing it is theater.

    If you feel I am insane so too is the brilliant black neurosurgeon, Dr. Ben Carson who worked as a leading physician at Johns Hopkins hospital in Baltimore for over 30 years. A doctor!

    Dr. Carson was quoted as saying:

    Obamacare is “the worst thing that
    has happened in this nation since slavery.”

    Dr. Carson made the remark at the
    Values Voter Summit in Washington D.C. on Friday.

    “It is slavery because it aims to
    make all of us subservient to the government,”

    Dr. Carson explained. “It was
    never about health care. It was about control.”

  • Anonymous

    The monthly premiums under Obamacare are TOO high with HIGH deductibles. I wish more Americans will go to the website and become aware what Obama has signed them up for. Without the public option, it is a legal route for private insurance industry to price gouge us.
    Have we not learned the lesson from privatization of our Treasury system by the Federal Reserve Banks?

  • http://homelandsec.blogspot.com/ Jim Ziegler

    Here in CA, the exchange premiums are significantly lower than they were for individual plans outside the exchange.

  • Cam Payne

    Note to Jeffrey William Lynch:

    The president ‘was’ willing to compromise. At the beginning of this whole debacle, he and the Dems compromised with the GOP by accepting a $70 billion cut to to their budget on the understanding that Republicans would raise the debt limit. Then the GOP reneged on their end of the deal and came back saying they would approve the debt ceiling only if ObamaCare was defunded. Now Republicans are saying the president won’t negotiate when that’s not the case.

  • Cam Payne

    I’ve listened to Ben Carson several times about ObamaCare. He may be a brilliant surgeon, but he is uniformed about the new health care law and his slavery analogy is a massive overstatement.

  • Anonymous

    Are these the same Kochs that fund science education so heavily? If so, that makes me really sad.

  • Anonymous

    How? The voters did their job, electing and re-electing the guy the majority wanted, and it still has not made a difference. The Senate and House elections are so rigged (by redistricting) that even if the voter does his or her duty and votes, it does not make a difference. These guys have *become* that “Domestic Enemy” I think, but there is nothing we can do about it that would not be stomped down. They learned from history in the worst ways possible. Even an “uprising” at this point would be neatly put down. I don’t see how we will come through this, whether or not there is violence. Therefore there is no use for violence since it would be ineffective and therefore a waste of human lives. I am NOT advocating violence or an uprising of any sort; just fearing that some will find it the only course left. I know I’m being very Eeyore about it, but I can’t see a way out. Short of everyone just up and leaving, that is. But where would we all go? Churchill said: “It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.” So as satisfying as it might be to just leave “them” all alone to feed on each other, there’s really no place for us to go, because no one else wants us unless we already have jobs and wouldn’t be “refugees”. What the US did for so many so long ago, no one else will do for us now.

  • Anonymous

    But we are not animals. Or at least we hope we are not animals. We do not leave the lame to die, yet. We do not deny food to the runt of the litter, yet. When we do, I hope it’s the end of the world and then we’ll find out whose beliefs about the afterlife (or absence thereof) are correct.

  • Anonymous

    Act in what way, exactly? Just what do you think the people, who have already voted multiple times, and so have (some of) their representatives and even the Supreme Court, should be doing? Exactly what “Action” do you see that has been left undone?

  • Micheal Planck

    You ignored my points: that nationalized health care already exists in America (in the form of Medicare and TriCare) and in every other democracy (from Japan to Germany to Australia) without being a “plan to gradually control the masses.”

    This is a brute fact that you can establish by yourself by simply talking to someone on Medicare or TriCare, or by traveling to another country and seeing for yourself if their freedoms have been eroded by decades of state health care.

    Dr. Ben Carson is insane. Doctors can be insane; technical brilliance is no proof against mental disorder. If you can’t recognize that comparing national health insurance to slavery is deranged, then you have a mental health issue too.

    If your complaint is that the ACA is a huge gift to insurance companies, then surprise! We agree! But the solution is to do away with the insurance companies. I.e., single payer, which is what Obama started out asking for.

    If you can’t afford Obamacare, then you can’t afford health care. Are you telling me you currently don’t have any health care? Do you understand that is a foolish and dangerous position to be in? Luckily Obamacare comes with subsidies so people can afford it. Have you gone to the website? Have you tried to sign up and seen what the premiums will actually be, especially after subsidies?

    Or are you just spinning fantasies, unwilling to look at even the most basic facts for yourself?

  • Micheal Planck

    If you want the public option, you have to start with the individual mandate.

    Or you could just move to a civilized country, like I did,. and skip the long slow process of educating Americans on what is in their own best interest.

  • Anonymous

    I agree that the system has been corrupted and until Citizens United is overturned by constitutional amendment, this country is doomed. However, your view of democracy sounds more like some utopian state of anarchy – not very realistic. Our Constitutional democracy is a process, not a utopian end-state.

  • Bruce J. Martin

    Insightful, researched, spot-on analysis. Thanks, Bill.

  • Anonymous

    I am watching it, Untangle and Trend Micro have no issues with this page.

  • http://gaiabrain.blogspot.com/ John Champagne

    Thank -you-. I’m glad you like it.

    My grandma would say, ‘Don’t thank me. Just pass it on.

    Anyone who speaks up and says we should make industries pay money to the people when they put pollution or deplete natural resources is a voice of reason.

  • http://gaiabrain.blogspot.com/ John Champagne

    I’d have to say, after we’re dead we still won’t know. But not for the same reason.

  • http://gaiabrain.blogspot.com/ John Champagne

    Extreme poverty and disparity is the way of a world where there is not reflected in the functioning of the economy and political system the realization that wealth springs from the combination of the several factors of labor, tools, natural resources and ideas about how to arrange or combine them; AND that the value contributed by the various factors (and the costs associated with providing that value) should be properly accounted for in the functioning of society, in the economy.

    If you don’t like charging fees to those who cause environmental impact, how would you suggest that we bring overall impacts into line with what the people want? Or do you believe that industries should be allowed to put more methane or mercury into the air than what most people think should be allowed? Do you think limited natural resources should be used up as quickly as industry is able to profitably extract them, or should we limit the rates of taking, so that most people don’t say we are depleting them too much?

    IF you accept fees as an efficient and fair means of control, you will be faced with a huge pile of money. SOMEBODY is going to get it. Who has the better claim? Where shall it go? This proposal is ‘communist’ in the sense that it recognizes that we all have an equal claim to benefit from natural resources or opportunities. It is capitalist in the sense that it recognizes labor and capital as having their proper rights recognized and respected, too. When we combine respect for public AND private property rights, we (can) have free markets still, but those markets would then include places where industries buy permits (permissions from the people) to make some small (or large) fragment of the overall impact that the people will allow. This market for publicly owned goods and services would be between the individual users of natural resources (meaning corporations, mostly) and society or the people at large.

    Having a fee or a system of auctions of permits doesn’t preclude people from going out and selling their labor and expertise. If people think it is best to use a portion of the proceeds from environmental impact fees to support public programs and thereby shrink or eliminate taxes on earnings and sales, we could do that. We could take the average of opinions discerned through random surveys to know what the proportion should be. If each person had control of a small fraction of the public budget and was asked to put the money toward what most people feel is a good way to promote the public good, then none of us would be forced to support a program that we disagree with. This paradigm would be more in accord with your preferences. You don’t want to be forced to support someone against your will. Where do you live? I think the current system has you supporting programs you disagree with. Is that not true?

  • Seth Murray

    This is absolutely ridiculous and does nothing except put an exclamation point after Moyers’ well-earned reputation for disconnectedness from reality. As usual, everything he said, and every principle upon which it is based, is utterly wrong:

    1) The government shutdown “costs” us nothing. It saves us money to shut down something that doesn’t actually generate any goods — only consumes them. Even if Moyers were somehow, miraculously correct that it costs $300M a day, I’d be willing to pay my share — much more than my share — every day to keep these goons idle.

    2) It is Obama, not the House of Representatives, that has absolutely refused to proceed unless he gets everything he wants — it is Obama (and the Democrats) who is engaging in extortion.

    But why expect anything different from someone who anchors a program that, itself, is not able to draw enough viewers to actually support itself — why expect anything different from someone who only knows how to sponge off of donations? Why would anyone expect Moyers to actually understand how money or the economy really work when he has never needed to and, in fact, lives off of charity, himself?

  • dhal9000

    So many otherwise moderate Republicans have been bullied into submission
    by the tea party extremists because of the corrupting influence of
    money in our politics. Anonymous money from deep pocketed donors flows
    (is laundered) through SuperPAC’s so that any candidate who crosses the
    right wing agenda will be assured of facing well financed primary
    opponents.

    Since so many gerrymandered districts are “safe” for the
    incumbent, the primaries have often become the real election, and it is a
    shadow election, driven not by voters (who show up in small numbers),
    but by funders who sponsor the campaigns. Those same sources who can
    offer lucrative jobs as lobbyists and corporate board members when the
    politicians and their senior staff finish their “public” service, like
    half of them do, Democrat and Republican.

    Congress isn’t broken, it’s
    “fixed”, and will stay so until we find a way to get the corrupting
    influence of money out of politics.

  • DBrashier

    I suspect that this will be of no value, because facts don’t seem to be a part of your world, but, for the record:
    1) The cost of the shutdown is documented. For example, one cost is that 800,000 paychecks are not going into the economy. Each of those paychecks buys food, housing, utilities, and so forth for a family. The restaurants, the stores, the other receivers of those purchases that aren’t being made are therefore also forced to spend less. It’s a multiplier effect – you might look it up. The government itself is also not spending money on little items like bridge inspections, the Center for Disease Control, the National Park Service, and WIC. Those aren’t “goons” that are being idled. They’re average folks doing their jobs. Some of them are still doing the job and not getting paid for it. “The government” seems, from your view, to be some alien overlord, but it isn’t – it is, for better or worse, we the people. It is of immense irony that people stand up in the House of Representatives and whine about “the government” when they are themselves the government. We’re not talking about some jack-booted thugs. We’re talking about men and women doing their work in office buildings. If you want to look at goons, however, I would suggest that you consider that the ACA has been the law of the land for 3 years. We’ve had an election that was partly a referendum on it. The Supreme Court has ruled on it and more than 40 times the Congress has rejected attempts to overturn it. It is settled law, but a small portion of one house of government has taken it upon themselves to bankrupt tens of thousands of people, keep others from getting help that they need through cancer treatment, keep thousands of others from getting any support to keep them from starving, and on and on, just because of that law that they don’t like. Killing innocents, punishing the bystanders simply to make a point – those are the actions of goons.

    2) Obama has already given in time after time. The whole sequestration was a compromise, as just one example. However, the House attempted extortion in demanding to defund the ACA unless they got what they wanted. The law demands that they act to provide a budget and they have refused to do so. Moreover, we have already contracted for debts that are about to hit the debt ceiling and the House has also, as it did in 2011, stated that it will use that ceiling as a weapon. Again, that’s the work of goons, not legislators. Obama and his colleagues have already compromised – the Continuing Resolution itself is a compromise because it continues the budget under sequestration level funding – but the House has chosen to add additional unacceptable conditions instead of sending a clean CR.

    In short, it isn’t Moyers who does not understand how the economy really works. In a few days, the House is planning to drive the country off a cliff for the sake of their egos because they “were disrespected”. By “disrespected” they mean that Obama actually stood up to them this time.

  • Virgil H. Soule

    Remove your blinders, Mr. Moyers. The shutdown is all about Obamacare, which was conceived and enacted under Democrat one-party rule in the Congress and the White House. Republicans were completely shut out of any democratic process and repeatedly denigrated along the way. The Republicans will eventually give in but they do have a point to make: Statesmanship is dead in the Congress.

  • nnyl

    Actually, the ACA included many Republican ideas, such as the individual mandate, and did not include single payer or a public option that the progressive Democrats wanted. The law was a series of compromises, that the GOP then walked away from.

  • nnyl

    You need to say where he violated the law on each of these. Because, from the evidence I’ve seen he didn’t.

  • nnyl

    I’ve been saying that for years. If you can only raise money from your constituent base, you aren’t beholdened to outside interests.

  • http://absurdlypointless.blogspot.com/ TBJ

    Thanks for the correction. It always makes me so happy when someone steps in and attempts to govern the content of my commentary.

  • Anonymous

    What part of Obama won the election, it was approved in the House and Senate, approved by the Supreme Court and demanded by the People…but since you and a small group decide we dont know whats good for us, we shut down the Govt, crash the good faith and credit of the USA, Leave millions out of work, Parks closed…..because a few good ole boys couldnt figure out that WE THE PEOPLE is a majority, not a TEA PARTY.

  • Anonymous

    Try to pay those premiums without a job or pay when your employers elects to pay the penalty and have YOU pay it. Of course, they wont raise your pay to compensate either.

  • Anonymous

    The sabotage of democracy occurs when we allow private special interests to buy undue influence by campaign finance, revolving door, and kick backs. Capitalism or any other means of barter will do the same level of corruption. This is why we should NEVER allow private corporations, special interests from becoming our governing power. This is why I don’t like Obamacare as it stands, and the Federal Reserve System.

  • Anonymous

    Computer-honed
    gerrymandering has made the capture of the House by the right wing
    possible. This technique makes the district primaries and loyalty to the
    base all important, not the general election which is a foregone
    conclusion. As we see, gerrymandering doesn’t work in Senate elections.

  • http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reverbnation.com%2Fc.%2Fa4%2F2341885%2F993458%2FArtist%2F0%2FUser%2Flink&h=b7354 Jeffrey William Lynch

    Nice post! I concur totally!

  • Anonymous

    Obama = Worst President Ever

  • Anonymous

    Governments are not human and have no sense of right and wrong.

  • http://homelandsec.blogspot.com/ Jim Ziegler

    Well, if you are without a job, then you can sign up for Medi-Cal which gives you free coverage. If you don’t have employer coverage, but are employed, you likely would qualify for the subsidy which would push the cost down even more.

  • phyllis bala

    I didn’t know this. Thank you.

  • Anonymous

    The fact that you’re defending the tea party in any way points to your own ignorance.

  • Anonymous

    That is nonsense.

    Anyone that cares to can research the costs of the ACA – both as a whole and for the individual. They can then compare them to our current ‘stuff money in the pockets of greedy middlemen while going bankrupt yourself’ reality.

    Your comment is either intentionally fallacious or you haven’t bothered to research the subject yourself. Yours reads like the comment of someone that gets all their news from wildly dishonest right-wing partisan sources. Now here you are on Moyers’ site, a site you’ve come to for the sole purpose of trolling. The ‘right’ have been lying about the ACA since day one, so I guess it shouldn’t surprise me to see you continue the tradition.

    Well…. That’s your business (sad though it is). Make no mistake, though – Once the rest of the country experiences a bit of what it’s like to live in a civilized nation that doesn’t let it’s citizens die in the street or go bankrupt under the weight of basic medical care costs, they’ll never go back.

    You’ve already lost this fight – You just refuse to face facts.

  • Anonymous

    All the illegal spying was started by Bush.

    It’s an eternal disgrace that Obama has continued (and expanded) it, but don’t pretend it didn’t start with your party’s last presidential administration.

  • WTF Over???

    look up the term fascism before you speak sweetheart. The platform is to limit the power of the government, yet bans marriages that he sees as immoral; preaches against communism (which sure…we all do but…go with me for a minute); hates immigration; and persecutes all that are not moral in his eyes…..hmmm….I think that sounds a lot like Hitler hon…

  • Anonymous

    These TEA party fanatics must be studied carefully because they are the embodiment of those they accuse of anti-American tendencies. How do they justify trying to force their religious beliefs on the masses, trying to control women’s rights, force anti-abortion rules on women’s rights, change the voting rules to gain an advantage in the electoral process, etc. Sounds similar to the Muslims they claim to hate. Trying to overturn our democracy with selfish ideas that we have dismissed years ago should be opposed with all our might.

  • haybilongs

    i am still being forced to buy something i don’t want.get it

  • haybilongs

    as an american citizen i should not have to buy something i don’t want.

  • Anonymous

    So, who threw the tantrum? Those who were willing to negotiate or those who refused to negotiate?

  • Anonymous

    The discussions surrounding the shutdown do not address the core problem. The national Debt is something above $16.7 trillion. The present value of the future underfunding of Medicare and Social security is (according to the Treasury Department) is $77.9 trillion. GDP is just over $15 trillion. The total worth of every U.S. citizen all added up is $66 trillion.

    - Dick Lepre

  • PeoplesGovmt

    Warning – venting comment: the Tea-Party was initially a libertarian movement, and only loosely affiliated with the Republican party. The GOO hijacked it for its voter-energy, ands attached their social dictatorship agenda to it. How then, is the Tea party different from the standard fare Republican party? It doesn’t. It’s a misnomer. It has become myth. Therefore, there it’s no such thing as a “tea party” in the republican party.

  • PeoplesGovmt

    If you pay income taxes, you are paying for health care. It may not be for yourself, but you’re paying. So don’t be misled to think you are/were not paying before ACA.

  • Ken

    I wish they would outlaw the tea party!

  • Ken

    Theres nothing to negotiate! Obamacare was signed into law, and the majority approves it!

  • Ken

    As another German I will tell you, the tea party is exactly the same as the Nazis!

  • Anonymous

    A typical remark from a intolerant and ignorant lefty. If you can’t win the argument, get rid of the competition.

  • Ken

    Most of that has been happening since Reagans day, don’t blame Obama for stuff the republicans started! I agree that it is a disgrace that Obama has continued to allow it to happen.

  • Ken

    Exactly what Dwight D Eisenhower a Republican, warned about in his farewell address.

  • Ken

    Bullcrap! Obama caved in to almost every demand they made, outside of doing away with it entirely.

  • Ken

    Amen!

  • Ken

    I have no problem viewing it. Perhaps your computer is controlled by the tee party. ;-)

  • Ken

    Isn’t it sad, that America which touts itself as the greatest country on Earth. Is the only civilized nation, that does not have national healthcare, and has the hightest mortality and medical costs of any nation?

  • Ken

    If you don’t have a job or are below the poverty line. You can qualify for Medicaid in most CIVILIZED States. If you are unfortunate enough to live in a tee party controlled state —well then your up a creek. You voted for small government, that’s what small government gets you.

  • sher

    But Bush did not use it to win elections and punish political opponents. IRS chief visited Obama 155 times during 2010 to 2012. I don’t even know if Obama worked so many days in that period. I personally know 100s of people who got audited for speaking out against the regime. Freedom today is to be free as a liberal not otherwise. Shameless liberals. There would have been no liberal speech if the conservatives did not give freedom to all forms of opinions and yet be called “suppressors” and “terrorists”. Look at yourself in the mirror before name calling and look at your special “black” leaders in Democratic party spewing hate every day. Go ahead, enjoy your day now. Until the socialists will start catching with liberals pretty soon. AP realized it a bit too late. The rest will follow with their “renaissance” in due course.

  • Anonymous

    They’ve been forced to deny the results of their own studies–or studies to which they have contributed. This has happened to them at least twice, I believe–but it doesn’t seem to slow them down at all. Look. Great Auntie Elsie (sp) Koch, upon her arrest, was in possession of the largest collection of items made of human flesh ever assembled. I can’t make this stuff up. Apparently, the acorn(s) hasn’t fallen far from the tree. The John Birch Society–started by Daddy Koch, is nothing but a lot of Klansmen in suits. The bros have what daddy didn’t have, however: money. Lots and lots of it.

  • Anonymous

    They have a demonstrated ability to get people to act against their own interests–fear is their best tool. Fear and hard times. Manufacture hard times and fear follows.

  • Anonymous

    Thank you. My family has a similar history. In our case we arrived in 1609 and celebrated the 400th birthday of our first North American ancestor in 2011. My grandmother was a direct descendant of a signer of the Second Jamestown Charter–but I hasten to add: this means very little. It’s interesting and to a degree shows who we are–but many can make such claims. Our nation has a proud and patriotic history. We have participated in every war this nation could muster for 165 years before it was a nation. On my wife’s side, over 500 people in her extended family were murdered by fascists–this (for the most part) in three different nations: France, Italy and Greece. Nazis would have murdered my wife and my children. Two of my great uncles whom I never met were dragged from their beds and shot though the head while kneeling in the street in front of their homes–and in front of their wives and children. They lived in the Netherlands. I might recount to the present day and the present hour but I will stop now. This is not a proper forum for our loss. We know the cost because we continue to pay it. That’s all.

  • Anonymous

    Hold presses, Call congressmen, I THINK I HAVE SOLUTION!

    In Bill’s presentation, he showed that on Aug 10, 2013 on Fox “News”, Sarah Palin reconfirmed that ACA DOES INDEED contain “DEATH PANELS”.

    Perfect bargaining chip!
    If GOP would agree to open Gov and not create the economic havoc that would be credit default,
    Dems in turn would agree to eliminate all those Death Panels from ACA.
    Now THAT’S something to take back to that the constituents of T party candidates that they should be able to understand!
    Grandma’s safe!

    And Dems could throw in some coupons for Chuck E Cheese, just for measure!

  • Anonymous

    Right now the Death Panels are the Tea Party idiots…

  • haybilongs

    you would think so.

  • haybilongs

    we’d be living in canada then

  • haybilongs

    i believe a living wage would enable most people to buy health ins.I am a democrat but not for long.
    you are the one who is not reading into this.

  • haybilongs

    who is misinformed?

  • jeremyseattle

    Yes, they’re too hung up on Obamacare. Remember that the budget has already been reduced in the past couple of years. The current Republican arguments are not fiduciary; they are political.

  • Micheal Planck

    Sad is not quite the right word: try tragic. As in, the tragedy of a dying empire.

  • Cam Payne

    I’ve been wondering that for days. My husband, an attorney, says there’s a case to be made for “Seditious conspiracy.” However, he thinks the DOJ may be hesitating because there’s something unsavory about a Democrat administration pursuing charges against Republicans.

    As far as I’m concerned, any unsavoryness is all on the TP Republicans. A case may take a long time, and the DOJ may lose, but charging them might discourage the TP R’s from trying something like this again.

  • Cam Payne

    Fred–thanks for making my day. I’m LOLROTFL.

  • Anonymous

    Please understand how a constitutional republic, like our government, works. We are not a majority rules system. You demonstrate your ignorance with the teabagger pejorative. Negotiations are about using leverage to obtain compromise. Oh, I am tired of the worn out gerrymandering talking point. It simply is not true. Besides democrats have never been known to gerrymander, right?

  • Anonymous

    That’s why the Obama deficit is more than all of the other administrations’ combined. Explain to me how that works.

  • Robert Grasso

    Medi Cal does not provide “free” coverage. It provides coverage paid for by other people.

  • Robert Grasso

    How about the nationalized healthcare in Cuba, Mexico, Honduras, Russia, China, ….

  • Michael Hunt

    Common Sense in 1951 Hannah Arednt wrote a very noted and respected piece called “The Origins of Totalitarianism”. It is a interesting read and directly shows how the minority got control in 1930′s German government creating the Nazi control.
    It is uncanny how close the events that happened in Germany are occurring with this tea party crowd in 2013 America.
    Though I doubt you will search Hannah Arednt on Google and read it, the tea party does represent a Totalitarian threat regardless of what you think. That’s how it went in the early times in Nazi Germany too. Deny and don’t believe, history always repeats.

  • Anonymous

    If what you say is true, why are we having to raise the debt limit? It seems if we are cutting spending, then we could pay off some of the credit card bill.

  • Micheal Planck

    How about the post office in Cuba? How about the military in Russia? How about the police force in Boliva?

    Either you are suggesting that we abandon any government function that has ever, anywhere, been done poorly – which would mean all of them; or you are inadvertently admitting you consider the US government not only less competent than Australia, but also Russia and Cuba.

    Way to fly your patriot colors!

  • http://homelandsec.blogspot.com/ Jim Ziegler

    Welcome to civil society, where we help those who need it. Like Jesus would.

  • http://homelandsec.blogspot.com/ Jim Ziegler

    And those taxes are?

  • http://homelandsec.blogspot.com/ Jim Ziegler

    Ah the super secret 200% income tax? The one right after the death panels and the secret army?

  • http://homelandsec.blogspot.com/ Jim Ziegler

    Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s….

  • Anonymous

    The problem(s) with people who are like you:
    1. Low or virtually no facts get to you. Only Obama and his lapdog media’s side of the story, the author of this article is included in that description.

    2. It is not just the “Tea Party” it is all of us who care about this country and don’t want it to turn into a gian cesspool like Detroit, any city in California, New York, Chicago, ….etc.
    I am a non partisan conservative, and if I had any say on this, I would dismiss ALL of the Congress, with the exception of the few and the brave that stood up against Obama’s relentless campaign to run this country into the ground.

    3. It would really help if you and others familiarize yourself with the Constitution of the USA and what powers it gave the Congress and the administration. You’s be surprised who is the one who is wrong on this.

    4. The radical and far left thugs in this country, control media, Hollywood and academia, so unless if you do your own reseach and read objectively, read both sides, without the partisan glasses, you’re most likely a victim of a mass brain washing and indoctrination.

    Finally, can you please tell me how EXACTLY, raising the debt ceiling does not raise the debt?
    I like the one comic I saw today, comparing this with raising level of blood alcohol limit and then claiming it does not lead to more drunk driving.
    You can continue to blame one side based on the story or the fairy tales told by the other side, but that neither shows you understand this, nor makes what you are saying right.
    The gutless Republicans caved in, and now your hero president got what he wanted. Enjoy what you voted for earlier, and what you are advocating now. But spare us the tears when you look at your bills and then when you see your paycheck less because of the new taxes this will lead to.

  • Anonymous

    Conservatives fought hard against women’s rights and their right to vote. Conservatives fought hard against establishing minimum wage and unfair child labor practices.
    They fought REALLY hard against ending practice of slavery. Conservatives known as “Tories” at time of American Revolution fought hard to retain allegiance with England. They fought hard against medicare and Social Security.

    Perhaps ACA may work out in long run?

  • Robert Grasso

    Oh yes, do throw out all the accusations you can think of. I’ll just address just one, the rest you can prove to yourself. In 1890, Wyoming was admitted to the union. It already had women voting. Women’s suffrage was then supported with voting rights by Utah, Colorado and Idaho. The 19th amendment was finally passed when Tennessee approved it to make it law of the land. Hmm, Utah, Idaho, Tennessee, and Colorado, all very, very liberal to this day. With a bit of reading you can discover which states opposed the 19th. You guessed it, all of the old South, controlled by whom you may ask. Why well, yes, our good friends, The Democratic Party.

  • Robert Grasso

    I’ll start with a few you may have heard of. 3.8% Surtax Tax on Capital Gains paid for by the rich – joint filing households over $250K. The Tax on Medical Device Manufacturers, The High Medical Bills Tax. Those are just a few. Here’s a link, the first I found, so easy. It is referenced but by all means do your own research. Don’t trust it, this Congressman is white, a conservative, and from the south, and we all know what that means. ; ]

    http://jeffduncan.house.gov/full-list-obamacare-tax-hikes

  • http://homelandsec.blogspot.com/ Jim Ziegler

    Capital gains are already taxed at an artificially low rate, so you get no sympathy. The other taxes are not that significant. For the benefits we get from them, which is insuring millions of people, it is more than worth it.

  • http://homelandsec.blogspot.com/ Jim Ziegler

    Every other industrialized nation has single payer. They all deliver care at drastically lower costs than we do, and most of them have much better outcomes for it. Our clinging to the market in health insurance just means we pay a ton of money for crap.

  • Anonymous

    One thing I’m surprised that more people don’t seem to “get”.
    Republican Party has not always been associated with Conservatism. Conservatives have switched party affiliation on several occasions in our nation’s history, the most recent being after Johnson.

    Definition of Conservative: A person who is averse to change and holds to traditional values and attitudes.

    Theodore Roosevelt, a Republican, was the first to run on an “officially” Progressive platform.

    Certain Southern states have ALWAYS voted “Conservative”, however and is a good indication of which party was Conservative on any given election.

    I would need spend a bit more time to research validity of your claims as far as the women’s rights question.

    Thanks, Later

  • Anonymous

    I think the “accusations “ I throw out are fairly supported by fact.
    Tories were indeed considered Conservative.
    Certain Southern states have always voted “Conservative” and as such are a pretty good indicator of which was the most “Conservative” Party on any given election.
    Conservatives have not always been associated with one party or the other. Their most recent change of party was after Johnson when they switched from Dem to GOP as a result of Johnson’s efforts to promote civil rights and integration of schools.
    Theodore Roosevelt was Republican and first to run on an “officially” Progressive ticket.

    As far your Women’s rights and suffrage claims, you raise interesting points, but I can not immediately confirm the validity of your argument without further study, which I will do when less pressed for time.

    Meanwhile, I suspect this Moyers thread may soon vanish into antiquity and I may have to see you next go round.
    Thanks. Later.

  • Robert Grasso

    Jeez. Tedious.

    Actual Definition of Conservative.

    believing in the value of established and traditional practices in politics and society.

    Believing in traditional values does not mean resistant to change. So for an example applicable to today. A traditional value. Do not spend more than you earn or can repay. Live within your means.

    Another example. A traditional value. Self reliance and independence.

    So if a societal, economic or other change were reflective of traditional values conservatives would embrace. The health care debate for example. If a state were to require its citizens to have health care insurance, typically conservatives would recognize that as a state issue. When the federal government does it that creates a different issue. Government is another. Conservatives would typically believe that more government makes you less free. Also reflective in the health care debate. Try buying an insurance policy that does not cover birth control. So me and my life partner, both male, must purchase birth control coverage, even though we are incredibly unlikely to need it. Or , I’m a post menopausal single female. I must also purchase birth control coverage. So again more government involvement, less freedom of choice.

  • Robert Grasso

    No, I was being sarcastic.

  • http://selfevidenttruths-euripides.blogspot.com/ Euripides

    You all do realize that when Moyers refers to “the die-hards of the racist South” he’s referring to Democrats? The comparison is invalid because it compares two very different ideologies.

  • Robert Grasso

    No, I was being sarcastic.

  • Robert Grasso

    OK great, so let’s discuss the Tories. We’ll go with your point that they were conservative. So then our founding fathers, implementing change, were then liberal. So far so good. Ok, now to present day. The Tea Party folks, almost exclusively advocate adherence to Constitutional principals. Widely ridiculed as being extremists, terrorists, and so on. So if the founding fathers were liberals, then wouldn’t the Tea Party groups be as well. Steve Forbes, advocating changing the income tax. So he too now, is a liberal. The point is, that these labels are a terrible way to identify people or beliefs. They are pejorative, divisive, and only serve those who seek to create wedge issues with which to divide us. Now, if you’re talking about freedom, liberty, preventing the NSA from spying on us, ensuring that individuals can choose their own path, those are ideas worth discussing. Interesting isn’t it that the Gov. Jindal in Louisiana, instituted school choice that allows minority children in failing inner city schools to escape to better schools. The Justice Department is suing them. Why. Because when a minority child leaves one of these schools, the school then becomes “too white” and therefore segregationist. Again, here we have a change agent (Jindal), opposed by the Federal Government because of some label. I would bet the parents of those kids could care less about said labels.

  • Anonymous

    “Tea Party folks, almost exclusively advocate adherence to Constitutional principals.” They may make that claim but I’m not seeing it. ACA passed all 3 branches of government as outlined in constitution and became law. So TP’ers decide not to except constitutional process and threaten great economic damage to country? TPers seem to be doing the work of some corporate masters, whether they realize it or not.

    What income tax changes does Forbes recommend?

    I don’t mean to create divisiveness, I just would like to open people’s eyes a little as far as the fact that “conservatives” have done far more to hold this back country then to advance it forward and have been on the “wrong” side of most of the critical issues in our past.

    The freedom, liberty argument I buy only up to a point. You can have lots of freedom and liberty in Somalia where you don’t have to worry about silly rules and regulations, you can walk around with rocket launchers (GOPers ought to love that).

    You may have a valid point about Jindal case.

    Overall, I think Obama has performed fairly admirably considering the level of obstructionism he has faced and the morass that he walked into in ‘08.

  • Anonymous

    I am all for “self-reliance and independence” What chance of SR&I do people have if jobs are disappearing? I heard last night that the next generation in America will the first one that’s less educated then the last. That can’t be a good sign.

    So how are jobs created?There is a deep ideological divide. “Conservatives” since Reagan seem to believe that less you tax the more it “frees” business to hire more and ultimately produce more revenue.

    Only problem is I don’t think historical data fits that description. The times when America worked better for a much larger middle class, were those periods when corporate and tax on higher brackets was much higher. “I don’t like them there taxes” is a great slogan but as far as making us a stronger country more able to pay down debt, I think you may want to think differently. Multi-national corps have off shore Corporate tax shelters reportedly contain trillions that will never be taxed -how is that helping?

    As far as your insurance questions- yes there are some kinks that need worked out, but is no excuse to give up on ACA before it starts.

  • Anonymous

    As I understand the conservative house position was to have members of congress abide by the ACA like the rest of us..In addition they called for fairness in that the businesses are exempt for a year.. Why not the folks as well. Obama & Reid would have no part of this fair request.. I do not see that as extortion as the previous govt shut downs had bargaining points attached.. The tally..Democrat closures 15; Republican 2. The real irony of it all is that it looks like we will get a delay anyway due the massive failure of the commuter program total failure & the massive repair and/or rebuilding.; What conservatives asked for they’re getting..If Obama & Dems had honored that request they would not be totally embarrassed as they are now..What a mess. Who really shut the govt down..????? Who refused to negotiate??? Asking for the folks to be treated fairly is not extortion.

  • Anonymous

    It seems the civil war was fought & Lincoln, a Republican, freed the slaves. The opposition was the southern states & member of KKK.. The southern Democrats..

  • Anonymous

    Yes our unfunded entitlements are going to be broke in a few years..Our leaders do not have the courage to correct this huge real problem..When it comes to the natl debt… it is really financial child abuse of our future children.. but then why be concerned… they don’t vote.. What a sad crop of politicans..Gutless, selfish, bunch of liars.. not a statesman in the bunch.

  • Anonymous

    Reducing the deficit from 1.2 trillion to 5-600 billion is not a success story considering Bush’s highest deficit was 400 billion. During his campaign Obama criticized Bush’s spending & called it unpatriotic & terrible.. but now 600 Billion is a REDUCTION?? Really

  • Anonymous

    I have a choice..if I don’t have a car no auto ins..if I rent I don’t have a home to insure.. Under the ACA we are mandated to buy something or pay a “tax”

  • Anonymous

    It has boiled down to “pay to play” & if not that way we will extort pay from you. i.e. If you want something from big govt.. pay up. Most of us folks are not part of this unless we a part of a organization .i.e. veterans, union; farmer group etc.

  • Anonymous

    The polls over the past 3-4 yrs show the folks have not favored this ACA law for many reasons. Mainly because it is NOT affordable, All the lies about its cost, keeping your doc & ins. premium savings etc. They are afraid of the power of the IPAB which has a license to say who gets what when it comes to medical procedures. The Republicans have seen the need for healthcare reform but not this ACA..Not one conservative vote. It appears the conservatives just might get their individual delay they asked for that Obama would not negotiate on & shut the govt down.

  • Robert Grasso

    Dang, shocking them that so many millions do every single thing they can just to be here. In addition be good at propaganda, we must also have on heck of a publicist.

  • Anonymous

    Has it ever occurred to you that “conservatives “ have not always had allegiance to one party?
    Conservatives switched parties during our history several times.

    Republican Theodore Roosevelt ran on the first “officially” progressive ticket.

    What do you think Democrat Johnson meant, immediately on signing the Civil Rights Act in 1964, when he said, “We (Dems) have lost the South for a generation.” ?

    As far as Lincoln, emancipation of slaves was not conservative policy.
    There are certain deep south states that always voted “conservative”.

    So what party would a “Lincoln Republican” be in today-
    Democrat I would reckon

  • Anonymous

    Your opinion on Lincoln’s present day party affiliation is interesting. I might just ask the question: Which party would JFK be today having cut taxes to stimulate the the economy?? You comment on what a conservative been over history is worthy of note. The Civil Rights Act of 64 passed with the help the Republicans …

  • Anonymous

    Albeit without going back and studying more closely I would assume that predominance of of JFK’s policies would land him in with the Progressives.
    He would be forgiven for lowering higher bracket rates form 91% to 70%(?)
    Most people of all stripes would consider 70% pretty high, although in the end it’s the effective rate after loopholes that ultimately matter.

  • Rob Gustaveson

    stop blaming God for what man does

  • poot

    is that supposed to be some sort of huge, somehow relevant thing, 150 years ago? We’re talking about people, not political parties here… try and keep up with
    the rest of us.

  • poot

    what?

  • poot

    I have a lot of acquaintances that came here from Russia… when they get together and talk at parties, they mostly talk about what a crappy place this is and how wonderful Russia is… yet they don’t seem to be going back even to visit, and they’re in the process of moving their families here. Yeah, must really be horrible here.

  • poot

    “Redressing your government” does not include calling for it’s violent armed overthrow, like Michele Bachmann did in Michigan six years ago with no legal consequences whatsoever.

  • http://selfevidenttruths-euripides.blogspot.com/ Euripides

    Moyers is the one who compared Congress shutting down to Democrats in the South 150 years ago. Maybe he’s implying something about the inherent racism of the Democrat Party?

    Come on Poot. Keep up with the argument Moyers implies.

  • Anonymous

    Businesses need more time to prepare. Individuals do not. Because of website problems, they will extend the enrollment period. It’s that simple.

    Regarding “negotiating” – the ACA is a compromise. It is not the single-payer, government-run solution that many of us true liberals wanted. The ACA is private (corporate) insurance, based on many previous GOP plans. The GOP/Teapublicans are only rejecting it because they don’t want to give Obama any credit for fixing our broken healthcare system.

  • Anonymous

    Your comment is confusing.. you state it was a compromise…If it was why didn’t one GOP member of each house vote for it. We would gladly give credit to who ever fixed our broken healthcare system..The point being the voters in all polls that I’ve seen do not approve of the ACA..especially now when we really have found out what is in it…Many of the “selling” points were not true.

  • Anonymous

    The defunding position was the GOP first offer & they withdrew that from it. I was referring to the 3rd offer the GOP made. Every govt closing… Dem or GOP is not extortion.. its bargaining from a position of strength.. Like R Emanuel stated .. ..you do not let a crisis go to waste.. If you recall the Dem govt closings were about abortion & money during the 70′s & 80′s I find it amusing that the first day of shut down every national park throughout the nation was posted with necessarily printed signs & barricades.. It was planned by Reid & Obama it would appear.

  • Anonymous

    Republicans and Democrats switched when the Dixiecrats went down. Pay attention to history.

  • http://selfevidenttruths-euripides.blogspot.com/ Euripides

    Again, Moyers is the one who brought that up, not me. He’s the one who needs to pay attention to history. Neither Poot nor ChainUp seem to recognize that Moyers is the one who made the comparison.

  • Cam Payne

    Liberalism has nothing to do with
    it. The actions of the TP Republicans are seditious conspiracy because they
    meet the legal definition. Their actions are conspiracy because these
    Republicans are on record several months before the shutdown, planning to
    coerce a shutdown if Democrats would not agree to defund ObamaCare, and sedition
    occurs when “two or more persons … in … the
    United States conspire… by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution
    of any law of the United States.” Those found guilty “shall each be fined or
    imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both.” Additionally, the
    federal court advises prosecutors considering charges of seditious
    conspiracy to ask the following questions: Did the defendant’s
    conduct … obstruct, delay, or affect interstate or foreign commerce in any
    (realistic) way or degree? Was the defendant’s actual or threatened use of
    force, violence or fear wrongful?”

  • Anonymous

    .

  • Anonymous

    William Moyers is quite the hypocrite and scumbag. He tried to get Goldwater declared “insane” by psychiatrists, for example.

    Moyers was the hunter of “suspected homosexuals” in LBJ’s White House….. And in the Goldwater camp…..

    He helped Edgar Hoover in the bugging of Martin Luther King.

    And Moyers “planted” questions in advance to reporters for LBJ’s press conferences.

    Moyers was nominated as one of the 50 most influential Progressives by Nation magazine, a magazine that recommends Marxism to its readers.

  • Anonymous

    Moyers’ jeremiads are outrageous. He claimed that Bush and Cheney were “feeding on the corpse of war.”

    Moyers compared people who wear American flag pins to people who adored the Little Red Book of the mass-murderer Mao.

    Moyers asserted that the Republicans retaking the Senate in 2002 would unite D.C. behind “eviscerating” our environment. He hints that the rich, as a class have never really held jobs of any kind. Moyers also bemoans
    opinionated broadcasters who use florid language instead of dry recitation.

    His hypocrisy knows no limits. Billybob Moyers denounced relationships between conservative foundations and conservative policy experts, while, at the same time, this miscreant was head of the Schumann Foundation. Moyers not only funded all his favorite left-wing institutions, he paraded them all across his programs that American taxpayer paid for!

  • Anonymous

    We are the greatest nation in the history of the world. Moyers is a phony and a hater of the country that gave him liberty and prosperity.

    Moyers denounces people for eating at the public trough in secret deals, but he specializes in profiting off PBS Home Video and other products he merchandises.
    Remember Moyer’s program “The Power of Myth,” with new-age guy Joseph Campbell? There was an interesting program entitled “PBS: Behind the Screen.” It exposed Moyers: He had entered into a secret kickback deal granting him a cut of the book proceeds to Campbell’s book. It was one of many such deals Billy has made to “profit” from “NONprofit” television.

    Moyers continues to funnel millions of bucks to ultra-leftist causes via his foundation. Moyers will certainly continue to lecture conservative parts of the country about their greedy desire for tax cuts, broadcast from his gorgeous apartment in chic section of Manhattan.

  • Anonymous

    Republican clearly shut it down,the economy was recovering and they’ll sabotage government if they get a chance. The problem for them is that it backfired and voters blamed them for the mess. Obamacare hasn’t even started. The problem was with a website,not with the program. I stand to benefit from it since we’ve always purchased our own insurance. Let’s see what happens in a year,maybe after the GOP propaganda dies down a bit.

  • Anonymous

    I’m glad you are going to benefit from Obamacare.. The bulk of the folks are not.. either higher premiums & bigger deductables & having to change their Doctor & hospital..Your financial situation must be such that you get a tax credit… Good for you but other folks will pick up the tab..I guess that’s fair?????

  • Anonymous

    Lifetime jobs in Congress were never contemplated as career path for individuals, and extent to which representative parity bias has produced that effect, it cannot be “by accident.”

    It’s obvious that America needs a survey of just how many in congress have used their eections in that manner, since inception, and the degree to which such opportunities to do so have, and are compromising the “right of representation” Citizens are entitled to. We need to know the degree to which Congress owns the body that creates that privilege.

  • http://Beaufishblues.wordpress.com/ leah #lovemyplanet

    only 4 years is enough, no pension no other benefits.

  • Anonymous

    It appears the site is pretty much fixed. All your points are moot as of Dec 2013 as per usual of right wingers.

  • Anonymous

    There was a time when business ethics was more common sense than being reduced to using cash flow to destroy candidates. Guess this did not cross the minds of Justices who allowed businesses to vote with their business dollars. Wonder why? Too much an ivory tower Supreme Court?

  • nych

    The thing is …even though your definition of conservative is about as good as can be considering all the different contexts it is used in, it isn’t really relevant here. The current Republican leadership is NOT socially conservative as it was traditionally, neither is it, as it once was “liberal” financially, in the european sense of the word meaning wanting free markets and a great deal of personal fiscal liberty. The american republican party is socially REACTTIONARY, to the point of what I call “”Christo-fascism”. Economically republicans are COMPLETELY AGAINST laissez faire economy and free markets with free competition. They instead are the BIGGEST SUPPORTERS ever of societal leeches, welfare queens, special treatment for entitled minorities, etc.
    These leeches, whiners, and multigeneration handout recipients are more commonly referred to as “the 1%”

  • nych

    Fine..but the public doesnt vote on laws, our representatives do. If they arent representing you as their constituent, vote them out. You can’t just ignore the constitutionally mandated legislative and executive process to serve public opinion, real or manufactured. If you are unhappy write the Koch brothers and urge them to buy even more republicans into office. I was going to say vote for the best candidate, but that is a cruel joke in today’s United Stated of Incorporated.

  • nych

    Riiight…who wants preventive care when you can just wait til you get sick and insurance must then cover HUGE expenses. Do you also never change your oil or maintain your car until AFTER the engine dies? After all apparently in your view that preventive care is a waste of money since you can just wait til your engine blows..Sure, that will be WAY cheaper, right?

  • nych

    Sigh..so much logical fallacy. Yes the Nazis wanted to TOTALLY control society through government, which mist can agree is a recipe for totalitarianism, which the third reich in fact WAS onenof the most horrid examples of. By what twisted logic does this mean ANY governemnt social program is AUTOMATICALLY bad because Hitler did it? By this dumb “logic” a preident who was anpainter or vegetarian or catholic (like Hitler) would lead to another holocaust. Is the Volkswagen Beetle also a war crime against humanity because the Nazis were responsible for it? As another example should we outlawall books and reading because mist killers are literate? ( actually a lot of TP members WOULD be in favor of that idea, excepting only the Bible of course)
    Saayyy…Hitler loved dogs too..OMG ALL DOGS ARE NAZIS!! 111ONE!!@$
    Sigh..learn to logic.

  • nych

    BOTH parties are totally owned by business intersts. I HOPE this is what yo meant. Please tell me you arent implying that the republicans arent AT THE VERY LEAST as much beholden to corporations. You DO read the news and are aware of how republicans vs. Dems vote on issues helping Big Business?

  • nych

    Immaterial…Romney was all too ready to takr credit for is great success. Then villifies bascically the same plan because the ‘pubs could not STAND to see Obama succeed at anything. I am fully convinced that the Tea Party would irrevocably destroy America rather than have an America that fails to fit their “christian” values of greed-as-virtue, objectivist “philosophy”, the “prosperity gospel” For people who hate evolution, they sure LOVE the social darwinism of the strong preying on the weak and “survival of the scummiest”

  • nych

    Forgive my crass lack of sympathy for all those poor people trying to subsist on a mere quarter million dollars a year. If they cant afford a chauffered Bentley to take them to michelin starred restaurants every night they will SURELY starve to death! I blame the lazy greedy unemployed and underemployed for whining about ” I have no house, my baby is hungry, I cant afford education, my chemo is too expensive” Whining leeches! They are just too lazy to invent a time machine to change all of history so they too can inherit millions and claim they earned it all. I say “let them die”

  • nych

    No wait..Those nice “christian” congressmen told me that poverty is a punishment from God or for being lazy. God WANTS you to KEEP your money and only godless commies want to help thise icky poor people. What bible have YOU been reading, pinko?

  • nych

    Your argument would be more convincingnif every person who uses it didnt show complete hate and contempt for the poor. But they do.

  • nych

    Survival of the fittest IS the natural order it is true. Arguing that this makes it right is called the “naturalistic fallacy”. SOME of us humans have aspirations as individuals and a species to be BETTER than mere wild beasts, “red in tooth and claw”.

  • nych

    Politics has always attracted the greedy and selfserving. But certain elements of the tea party are FAR SCARIER than this. Some membera have admittes that aomenof thwir actiona are ao unpoular that they HURT their chances of reelection. They tout this as a selfaacrificing stand on principle. Laudable if the principals auch as letting the poor atarve and die and cutting education werent so vile. Their hatred of those unlike them is SO strong and so much a part of their true feelings that thwill do the unthinkable and risk losing an election, all because even their greed and ego can no longer contain their murderous hatred. At least they have exposed themselves. It is a shame they may atill be able to use that ultimate political trump card of fear to once again mak us vote for our own deatruction.