Replay Our Live Chat with Chris Hedges and Joe Sacco

Journalist Chris Hedges and graphic artist Joe Sacco joined us for a live chat on Wednesday, July 25. You can see what they had to say by replaying the chat below..

On Moyers & Company, Hedges talked about America’s “sacrifice zones” — downtrodden places where people are trapped in endless cycles of poverty, powerlessness and despair as a direct result of capitalistic greed. In such books as War Is a Force that Gives Us Meaning, his weekly Truthdig column and other writing, Hedges puts truth-telling, dissent and social activism above all else, even if it means going to jail. Hedges tells Bill: “Truth and news are not the same thing. And the really great reporters are management headaches because they care about truth at the expense of their own career.”

In his new book, Days of Destruction, Days of Revolt, Hedges teamed up with Sacco, who has traveled all over the world using the techniques of the comic book illustrator as a tool of journalism. Together, the two of them tell the stories of the people in these forgotten corners of America with uncommon insight and humanity.

Chris Hedges and Joe Sacco

(07/25/2012)

  

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1:25	Moyers & Company:  We'll be starting the live chat at 2 pm ET, but please feel free to enter questions to get them into the queue ahead of time. Wednesday July 25, 2012 1:25 Moyers & Company

1:33	Moyers & Company:  We'll be joined by Joe Sacco and Chris Hedges at 2 PM ET. Wednesday July 25, 2012 1:33 Moyers & Company

1:59	chris hedges:  hello joe Wednesday July 25, 2012 1:59 chris hedges

2:00	Moyers & Company:  Chris is with us. Joe will be joining us shortly. Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:00 Moyers & Company

2:00	Moyers & Company:  Hello Chris. Thanks for joining us in our chat. Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:00 Moyers & Company

2:00	Joe Sacco:  hiya chris Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:00 Joe Sacco

2:01	Moyers & Company:  Hello Joe. Thanks for joining us. Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:01 Moyers & Company

2:03

[Comment From Roeb Steibel Roeb Steibel : ]  Chris Hedges did an incredible job eloquently addressing all of Bill's questions. Chris is a terrific writer and speaker. Since I write about comics artist Jack Kirby every day, I have a question for Joe Sacco. I'd like to ask: How much was Joe influenced by popular comics artists like Jack Kirby? Does Joe have any thoughts on the current court case between Jack Kirby and Marvel Comics? Jack Kirby's treatment by Marvel certainly symbolizes the greed Chris Hedges discussed in the interview. And one more question for Joe: obviously most folks use comics to write fiction, was there anything specific that inspired Joe to use the comics medium as a journalistic tool? Thanks to all involved for the interview, I look forward to reading the book. - Rob Steibel Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:03 Roeb Steibel

2:04	Joe Sacco:  Hi Roeb, Jack Kirby was one of the greats, and I particularly liked his blocky style. It's hard to say he influenced me directly, but he influenced others who influenced me. Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:04 Joe Sacco

2:05	Joe Sacco:  As far as the lawsuit goes, I must confess my ignorance, I'm afraid. Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:05 Joe Sacco

2:06	Moyers & Company:  The two of you worked together on Days of Destruction, Days of Revolt. Can you talk about how the project came into being? Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:06 Moyers & Company

2:07

chris hedges:  The title of the book was always Day of Destruction, Days of Revolt. But the revolt was conjecture. We knew that unfettered corporate capitalism, ie. corporate capitalism that no longer had impediments, would push until there was a reaction. And then Zuccotti was occupied as we neared the end of the book. Our goal was always to make those sacrified visible, which is why Joe was such a crucial element to the project. Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:07 chris hedges

2:09	Moyers & Company:  How long did it take to write and draw the book? Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:09 Moyers & Company

2:09	chris hedges:  Two years. In many ways the book was a continuation of my previous two books, Empire of Illusion and The Death of the Liberal Class. Books often flow out of past projects, which was the case with this one. Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:09 chris hedges

2:12

chris hedges:  It was always clear to us that Joe would take the most powerful narratives because he has through his comic panels the ability to give a filmic quality to people's lives. He can go back in time. We can make us see what people endured as well as hear what they say. And this raised the book to a whole other level. It gave it a punch pure prose would have lacked, Of course, our model, in many ways, was Let Us Now Praise Famous men where James Agee and Walker Evans, the great photgrapher, profiled sharecroppers and their families. Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:12 chris hedges

2:13	Joe Sacco:  I thought I have time to work on other projects, but 'Days of Destruction...' filled my working hours for months. I was working at a pretty grueling pace the last six months especially. Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:13 Joe Sacco

2:14

[Comment From M.M. M.M. : ]  I just finished reading the book! I am planning on using it in a freshmen English class at a community college where I just got my first teaching job. Mr. Hedges you find the solution to the “destruction” in the form of the occupy movement. You discuss Tim DeChristopher who was sentenced to a two prison term for his environmental activism. ... My question is: how do those who have obligations to spouse and children revolt against the system when they have mouths to feed and can’t face jail time? Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:14 M.M.

2:16

chris hedges:  The book was emotionally grueling. It was extremely painful to see the extent of suffering in these sacrifice zones, these areas of the country where people, families, communities are forced to kneel before the dictates of the market place. Yet these are important to examine because what happened to them is now going to happen to us, and more importantly to our children. It is because I have children that I engage in civil disobedience, although as a writer I have flexibility others do not. But unless we get into the street, unless we engage in acts of protest, there will be no future for our children. Climate change will doom us all unless we halt the fossil fule assault on the eco-system. Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:16 chris hedges

2:16	chris hedges:  To remain passive, to continue to trust the system, will doom the next generation. Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:16 chris hedges

2:17	[Comment From Sarah Sarah : ]  In the article you discuss particular locations that have been left to rot. Why did you choose specific locations rather than the underclass all across America? Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:17 Sarah

2:17	Moyers & Company:  Perhaps you could speak to why you chose the locations you did? You call them "sacrifice zones". Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:17 Moyers & Company

2:18	chris hedges:  We chose the poorest pockets of the country, those areas that were "sacrificed" first. We went there because it was the best place to view the process that is now seeing corporations "harvest" what is left of the country. Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:18 chris hedges

2:18	[Comment From Peter Staley Peter Staley : ]  Do the authors believe that their book has the potential to change things; first in the sacrificed cities, then all over the entire US? Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:18 Peter Staley

2:20

chris hedges:  There is no change until we see and recognize what is happening to us. If we continue, as I point out in Empire of Illusion, to deny reality, then we cannot talk of hope. Our reality may be bleak, but once we face it honestly we can begin to talk about the capacity for change. And change, radical change, must come soon if we are to survive as a species. In this sense, the book attempts to trigger a reaction, to push people outside the formal systems of power, to wake them up, and to finally offer hope. Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:20 chris hedges

2:21

Joe Sacco:  I worked on this project because I felt compelled to look at these places and get an idea of what is going on in the country and try to convey that to a broader public. I think the last chapter especially -- tho one about the Occupy Movement -- points to avenues we can take to address some of these issues. Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:21 Joe Sacco

2:22

[Comment From Vicki Hughes Vicki Hughes : ]  Chris, you said in the interview that you didn't know where the Occupy movement would go next, but what do you envision as effective action by both the Occupy movement and the environmental movement in the next few months? Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:22 Vicki Hughes

2:25

chris hedges:  Occupy was a tactic. In the same way the Freedom Rides were a tactic. Rebellion is always determined by the response of the ruling elite. If the elite had responded rationally -- a moratorium in foreclosures and bank repossessions, a massive jobs program targeted at the young, universal health care for all -- we would have seen the anger that drove people to these encampments dissipate. But the ruling elite responded exclusively with force. They have since continued to assault on the poor and the working class, the refusal to extent unemployment benefits, the failure to adequately fund the food stamp program, and because the corporate elite is out of touch with the suffering of the ordinary American we will see more protests, more acts of defiance. Will it be called Occupy? Will it look like Occupy? I do not know. No one knows. But I know something is coming. Of this there is no doubt. Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:25 chris hedges

2:26

Joe Sacco:  Well, since it's an election year, and the media focus seems to be the horse-race, I would hope the Occupy Movement would think of ways to make noise about what a corporate beauty contest the election cycle has become. There are serious issues about the nature of American democracy that a movement like Occupy can help highlight. Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:26 Joe Sacco

2:27

[Comment From Robert Dente Robert Dente : ]  Why is it that so many people in America can no longer distinguish between Darwinian Capitalism that trumps democracy at every turn and the Christian values of Love Thy Neighbor? It's Frank Capra turned upside down—everything has become "Pottersville!" Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:27 Robert Dente

2:27	[Comment From w4g w4g : ]  Can you talk about the way it seems we have been conditioned to accept the unacceptable? Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:27 w4g

2:31

chris hedges:  Robert, we are, as I wrote at length in Empire of Illusion, the most illusioned society on earth, utterly awash in lies. We are told across the political and cultural spectrum, from Oprah to the Christian Right, that reality is never an impediment to what we desire. And this keeps us in a perpetual state of infantilism. We never grow up. But as the gap opens up between what we think is happening and what is actually happening we expose our self to despair. When we realize that good job is never coming back, and will not be there for our children, then we react like children. We scream for moral renewal, veangance and new glory. It is an old story. This is the danger of now facing reality. And as long as we believe in the myth of personal enrichment and the lie of the American dream we will never reach out to our neighbor. Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:31 chris hedges

2:32

[Comment From songweasel songweasel : ]  (aside) "something is coming" is somewhat distressing...do you think this may be part of the reason that local police forces are becoming more militarized...armored vehicles, drone surveillance, real tough crack downs on assembly, etc.? Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:32 songweasel

2:34

chris hedges:  The security state knows very well that something is coming and they are preparing for it. This is why you see all dissent being criminalized. It is why I sued Barack Obama over section 1021 of the National Defense Authorization Act in federal court. We won that one. But the assault on civil liberties under Obama, who is an employee of the corporate state, is actually worse than under Bush. And this is because the state is indeed getting ready for turmoil. Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:34 chris hedges

2:36	[Comment From ComixLover ComixLover : ]  What did using a comic book style enable you to do -- in terms of truth-telling -- that traditional journalism wouldn't have? Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:36 ComixLover

2:39

Joe Sacco:  One thing I think that is most effective about the comics medium is the ability to take the reader back into time. For example, in the story about Rudy Kelly in West Virginia, I was able to recreate the difficult conditions of mining in the 1930s visually. Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:39 Joe Sacco

2:39

chris hedges:  When you witness, as Joe and I have done for the last two years, the worst of human suffering and then are forced to return to newsrooms and see your compassion washed out or severely muted by the layers of editors who stand between the reporter and the reader you begin to question the mantra of "objectivity" Who does it serve? Does it actually further the truth? The truth and news, after all, are not the same thing. The creed of objectivity and balance, formulated at the beginning of the 19th century by newspaper owners to generate greater profits from advertisers, in fact disarms and cripples the press. And the creed of objectivity becomes a convenient and profitable vehicle to avoid confronting unpleasant truths or angering a power structure on which news organizations depend for access and profits. The unofficial creed of the New York Times, where I worked for fifteen years, was do not significantly alienate those on whom we depend for access and money. This faux objectivity transforms reporters into neutral observers or voyeurs. It banishes empathy, passion and a quest for justice. Reporters are permitted to watch but not to feel or to speak in their own voices. They function as “professionals” and see themselves as dispassionate and disinterested social scientists. This vaunted lack of bias, enforced by bloodless hierarchies of bureaucrats, is the disease of American journalism. Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:39 chris hedges

2:40

[Comment From Kip Silverman Kip Silverman : ]  I am looking forward to reading the book soon. I do not have a questions; I just want to state unequivocally how much I appreciate and respect this conversation between you three, all the passion and intelligence you bring to the public and I will continue to do everything in my power to share and promote what is happening and this conversation. Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:40 Kip Silverman

2:40	[Comment From Kip Silverman Kip Silverman : ]  Thank you so much. Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:40 Kip Silverman

2:40	chris hedges:  Thanks Kip. Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:40 chris hedges

2:40	Joe Sacco:  That's very kind. Thanks. Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:40 Joe Sacco

2:42

[Comment From Christie Christie : ]  The broadcast with Chris Hedges was the one of the most powerful programs of Moyers & Company I've yet watched but I was left feeling paralyzed. How do we start changing the system...for I feel we are already too late to make the changes necessary. Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:42 Christie

2:43

chris hedges:  We may feel, in the face of the ruthless corporate destruction of our nation, our culture, and our ecosystem, powerless and weak. But we are not. We have a power that terrifies the corporate state. Any act of rebellion, no matter how few people show up or how heavily it is censored by a media that caters to the needs and profits of corporations, chips away at corporate power. Any act of rebellion keeps alive the embers for larger movements that follow us. It passes on another narrative. It will, as the rot of the state consumes itself, attract wider and wider numbers. Perhaps this will not happen in our lifetimes. But if we persist, we will keep this possibility alive. If we do not, it will die. All energy directed toward reforming political and state structures is useless. All efforts to push through a “progressive” agenda within the corridors of power are naïve. Trust in the reformation of our corporate state reflects a failure to recognize that those who govern, including Barack Obama, are as deaf to public demands and suffering as those in the old Communist regimes. We cannot rely on any systems of power, including the pillars of the liberal establishment—the press, liberal religious institutions, universities, labor, culture and the Democratic Party. They have been weakened to the point of anemia or work directly for the corporations that dominate our existence. We can rely now on only ourselves, on each other. Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:43 chris hedges

2:45

[Comment From Chris Boese Chris Boese : ]  It seems like it begs the question to just broadly assert that the national security state is expanding worse under Obama than under Bush 43, when Bush 43 did things in response to 9/11 that were simply unprecedented since the 1930s. Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:45 Chris Boese

2:46	Moyers & Company:  Please get in your questions. We only have time left for one or two more. Thanks to all of you who have commented or asked questions. Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:46 Moyers & Company

2:49	Moyers & Company:  I'm sorry we weren't able to get to all of your questions. We had a lot! Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:49 Moyers & Company

2:51	Moyers & Company:  We'll be able to get to one or two more. We appreciate your patience. Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:51 Moyers & Company

2:53

chris hedges:  Everything assault on civil liberties carried out by Richard Nixon, for which he faced impeachment and prosecution, which led to his resignation, is now legal under the Patriot Act, the FISA [Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act] amendment act, the National Defense Authorization Act. Obama has backed all these measures and adopted new ones. Bradley Manning allegedly gave WikiLeaks more than 700,000 documents and video clips. One clip showed the 2007 Apache helicopter attack in which U.S. military personnel killed more than a dozen people in the Iraqi suburb of New Baghdad, including a Reuters news photographer and his driver. Manning faces 22 charges under the Espionage Act, including aiding the enemy, wrongfully causing intelligence to be published on the Internet, theft of public property or records, transmitting defense information, and fraud and related activity in connection with computers. If he is found guilty he could spend the rest of his life in prison without the possibility of parole. Juan Ernesto Mendez, the U.N. torture rapporteur, has described Manning’s treatment by the U.S. government as “cruel, inhuman and degrading,” especially “the excessive and prolonged isolation he was put in during the eight months he was in Quantico.” The Espionage Act was used only three times for leaks before President Barack Obama took office. Ellsberg’s case was dismissed. Obama, who serves the interests of the surveillance and security state with even more fervor than did George W. Bush, has used the Espionage Act to charge suspected leakers six times. The latest alleged leaker to be charged by the Obama administration under the act is John Kiriakou, a former CIA officer accused of disclosing classified information to journalists about the interrogation of Abu Zubaydah, an al-Qaida suspect. Julian Assange, the founder of WikiLeaks, which published the cables and video clips allegedly provided by Manning, is expected to be the seventh charged in a leak case under the act. The Supreme Court has yet to hear a leak case involving the Espionage Act. But one of these six cases will probably soon reach the court. If it, as expected, rules that the government is permitted to use the Espionage Act against whistle-blowers, the United States will have a de facto official secrets act. A ruling in favor of the government would instantly criminalize all disclosures of classified information to the public. It would shut down one of the most important functions of the press. And at that point any challenges to the official versions of events would dry up. The Obama administration, to make matters worse, has mounted a war not only against those who leak information but those who publish it, including Assange. The Obama administration is attempting to force New York Times reporter James Risen to name the source, or sources, that told him about a failed effort by the Central Intelligence Agency to sabotage Iran’s nuclear program. Jeffrey Sterling, a former CIA officer, is charged under the Espionage Act for allegedly leaking information about the program to Risen. If Risen confirms in court that Sterling was his source, Sterling probably will be convicted. A Supreme Court ruling in favor of the Espionage Act in a leak case would also remove the legal protection that traditionally allows journalists to refuse to reveal their sources. We don’t have a democracy now in foreign affairs and national security. We have a monarchy tempered by leaks. Cut off the leaks and we don’t even have that. The WikiLeaks disclosures—the first in 40 years to approach the scale of the Pentagon Papers—may, if Obama has his way, be our last look into the corrupt heart of empire. Those who have access to information that exposes the lies of the state will, if the Espionage Act becomes the vehicle to halt unauthorized disclosures, not only risk their careers by providing information that challenges the official version of events but almost certainly be given prison sentences. Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:53 chris hedges

2:55	[Comment From Luke Luke : ]  Has President Obama done anything right since taking office? Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:55 Luke

2:56	[Comment From Truthrises Truthrises : ]  ... So where do you go to get YOUR news? Who do YOU trust? Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:56 Truthrises

2:58

Joe Sacco:  I read The Guardian and The Independent out of the UK. I read Haaretz for news about Israel-Palestine. The websites I look at every day include Naked Capitalism, Tom Dispatch, Firedoglake and Glenn Greenwald. And Truthdig, of course! I feel those websites dig deep and make concerted attempts to untangle the most important issues of the day. I also watch Democracy Now when I can. I read The New York Times to get a more mainstream approach to the events of the day. Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:58 Joe Sacco

2:58

chris hedges:  Obama is a corporate employee. He knows where power lies. And he serves this center of power. Read Sheldon Wolin's Democrayc Incorporated. Corporate forces, long before the Supreme Court’s decision in Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission, carried out a coup d’état in slow motion. The coup is over. We lost. The Citizens United ruling was jusst one more judicial effort to streamline mechanisms for corporate control. It exposes the myth of a functioning democracy and the triumph of corporate power. But it does not significantly alter the political landscape. The corporate state is firmly cemented in place. The fiction of democracy remains useful, not only for corporations, but for our bankrupt liberal class. If the fiction is seriously challenged, liberals will be forced to consider actual resistance, which will be neither pleasant nor easy. As long as a democratic facade exists, liberals can engage in an empty moral posturing that requires little sacrifice or commitment. They can be the self-appointed scolds of the Democratic Party, acting as if they are part of the debate and feel vindicated by their cries of protest. Much of the outrage expressed about the court’s Citizen's United ruling is the outrage of those who prefer this choreographed charade. As long as the charade is played, they do not have to consider how to combat what the political philosopher Sheldon Wolin calls our system of “inverted totalitarianism.” Inverted totalitarianism represents “the political coming of age of corporate power and the political demobilization of the citizenry,” Wolin writes in “Democracy Incorporated.” Inverted totalitarianism differs from classical forms of totalitarianism, which revolve around a demagogue or charismatic leader, and finds its expression in the anonymity of the corporate state. The corporate forces behind inverted totalitarianism do not, as classical totalitarian movements do, boast of replacing decaying structures with a new, revolutionary structure. They purport to honor electoral politics, freedom and the Constitution. But they so corrupt and manipulate the levers of power as to make democracy impossible. Inverted totalitarianism is not conceptualized as an ideology or objectified in public policy. It is furthered by “power-holders and citizens who often seem unaware of the deeper consequences of their actions or inactions,” Wolin writes. But it is as dangerous as classical forms of totalitarianism. In a system of inverted totalitarianism, as this court ruling illustrates, it is not necessary to rewrite the Constitution, as fascist and communist regimes do. It is enough to exploit legitimate power by means of judicial and legislative interpretation. This exploitation ensures that huge corporate campaign contributions are protected speech under the First Amendment. It ensures that heavily financed and organized lobbying by large corporations is interpreted as an application of the people’s right to petition the government. The court again ratified the concept that corporations are persons, except in those cases where the “persons” agree to a “settlement.” Those within corporations who commit crimes can avoid going to prison by paying large sums of money to the government while, according to this twisted judicial reasoning, not “admitting any wrongdoing.” There is a word for this. It is called corruption. Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:58 chris hedges

2:59	[Comment From Fred Alarium Fred Alarium : ]  Joe -- Will we be seeing more "comics journalism' from you soon? Do you think more artists and audiences will turn to this for news as they have turned to humor for news, like with The Daily Show. Wednesday July 25, 2012 2:59 Fred Alarium

3:01	[Comment From Rich Carlson Rich Carlson : ]  Thanks for news website pointers, Joe. Wednesday July 25, 2012 3:01 Rich Carlson

3:01	[Comment From songweasel songweasel : ]  thank you for what y'all do...and thanks for the opportunity to interact with the likes of the awesome chris hedges and joe sacco...:) Wednesday July 25, 2012 3:01 songweasel

3:01	[Comment From Rob Steibel Rob Steibel : ]  Thanks to Chris and Joe for their hard work. Wednesday July 25, 2012 3:01 Rob Steibel

3:02

Joe Sacco:  I'm not sure journalism answers all the questions I have. I'll still work in a journalistic capacity because I enjoy hearing people telling their stories. It's a bit of a fix, I admit. But I'm becoming more interested in subjects like psychology, neuroscience, and evolutionary biology -- things journalism didn't prepare me to tackle. That's where some of my new work will probably go. Anyway, other cartoonists are stepping into the journalism breech now so you won't lack for journalism in comics form, I think. Wednesday July 25, 2012 3:02 Joe Sacco

3:03

chris hedges:  Joe pretty much nailed my sources of news. I would add the BBC Newshour. And, of course, Moyers & Company, the only show on television that deals seriously with power and how it works. Common Dreams is also good. As is Truthout and Real News. I also look at Counterpunch, although they have gone after me more than once. But in the end it is vital to read books, serious books, including literature and history and philosophy, there is no replacement for this. Wednesday July 25, 2012 3:03 chris hedges

3:03	Moyers & Company:  I'm afraid we're going to have to end it there. Wednesday July 25, 2012 3:03 Moyers & Company

3:03	Moyers & Company:  Thanks to the both of you! Wednesday July 25, 2012 3:03 Moyers & Company

3:03	Joe Sacco:  Thanks to all of you. It was a pleasure. Wednesday July 25, 2012 3:03 Joe Sacco

3:04	chris hedges:  Thanks for being part of the chat. I enjoyed it. Chris Wednesday July 25, 2012 3:04 chris hedges

3:07	Moyers & Company:  Hedges and Sacco's book Days of Destruction, Days of Revolt is out now. You can watch an interview with Chris Hedges at http://bit.ly/NMRcIJ. Wednesday July 25, 2012 3:07 Moyers & Company

3:09	Moyers & Company:  And you can also watch a web-exclusive video about Joe Sacco's work. Wednesday July 25, 2012 3:09 Moyers & Company

3:09	Moyers & Company:  Thanks again for joining us for our live chat! Wednesday July 25, 2012 3:09 Moyers & Company

3:09	Moyers & Company:  Have a great afternoon. Wednesday July 25, 2012 3:09 Moyers & Company